What Makes a Good Follower?

[Steve Pastor]

Just had someone putting enough weight on my right shoulder to make it diffucult to do traspie in milonga, and I'm the guy. So it can go both ways, of course.

Women have the option of placing their left arm against the the front man's right shoulder or upper arm to prevent him from pulling you too close. You can also use your right arm to "keep him away from you".
You have the right to determine the embrace, and some of us (men) have been taught that.

An "embrace" should be comfortable, and it doesn't have to be "close".
Usually when I get a complaint from someone that I have been holding them too tightly, I've been compensating for their lack of staying connected with me on their own. (There follows an always interesting discussion which usually includes the statement that "my instructor talks about that".)

In an extreme case, the "arm pinch" could be used to get a guy's attention, but you probably would want to talk about it before it got that far (one would hope!).

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

I often hear this thing with the follower leaning or dragging on the leader but sometimes it feels like the leader is making us lean or put more weight on them maybe by not giving us enough space or from a too tight embrace? (I'm a newbie so what do I know)

Sure it happens. Problems with the posture, not keeping the connection with the partner on certain moves or all together (by leaning backward, for example), arms in the wrong place/position, arm pulling might be some of the possible reasons.

 

[dchester]

I often hear this thing with the follower leaning or dragging on the leader but sometimes it feels like the leader is making us lean or put more weight on them maybe by not giving us enough space or from a too tight embrace? (I'm a newbie so what do I know)

Just remember, not every leader wants the same thing, and to be honest, I might want something different depending on the type of tanda. These things are very complicated. There is typically some type of adjustment / calibration that goes on in the first song of the tanda.

 

[JohnEm]

Just remember, not every leader wants the same thing, and to be honest, I might want something different depending on the type of tanda. These things are very complicated. There is typically some type of adjustment / calibration that goes on in the first song of the tanda.

While I agree with the adjustment calibration during the early part of
the first song, in my world (me!) the man is the constant and relatively
unchanging. The man should be quite consistent about the dance he
desires. There are enough other influences on the dance - the music,
the floor and the partner of the moment - without introducing confusion
from within yourself.

Maybe I'm in a minority of one.

I'm also increasingly perturbed by the usage of leading and following
in tango. Perhaps it does describe dancing in loose and open holds
but its commonly understood meaning is inadequate for close embrace.
You could argue it understates and underestimates the lady's role.
Done well, there is no follow, she is dancing with me and that is what she
feels, sometimes described as an effortlessly floating. It's true the man
initiates but she is by no means a follower in the implied passive sense -
I am dancing with her too.

So for me the question perhaps should be:
"What Makes A Good (Lady) Partner?"

 

[bordertangoman]

While I agree with the adjustment calibration during the early part of
the first song, in my world (me!) the man is the constant and relatively
unchanging. The man should be quite consistent about the dance he
desires. There are enough other influences on the dance - the music,
the floor and the partner of the moment - without introducing confusion
from within yourself.

Maybe I'm in a minority of one.

I'm also increasingly perturbed by the usage of leading and following
in tango. Perhaps it does describe dancing in loose and open holds
but its commonly understood meaning is inadequate for close embrace.
You could argue it understates and underestimates the lady's role.
Done well, there is no follow, she is dancing with me and that is what she
feels, sometimes described as an effortlessly floating. It's true the man
initiates but she is by no means a follower in the implied passive sense -
I am dancing with her too.

So for me the question perhaps should be:
"What Makes A Good (Lady) Partner?"

you are laying your prejudices on the line aren't you...

one of my favourite dancers is becoming worse since she started to lead. so i really dispute your "pertubation" of the use of leader and follower. its nonesense; if you dont move she doesnt; the aim is to be moving together, but that makes it no different to many other dances.

 

[UKDancer]

... the aim is to be moving together, but that makes it no different to many other dances.

The aim may be shared, but not the means by which it is achieved, perhaps?

 

[JohnEm]

you are laying your prejudices on the line aren't you...

I said I might be in a minority of one!

one of my favourite dancers is becoming worse since she started to lead. so i really dispute your "pertubation" of the use of leader and follower. its nonesense; if you dont move she doesnt; the aim is to be moving together, but that makes it no different to many other dances.

I don't disagree that ladies learning to "lead" often become worse as
partners - that applies to other dances besides tango.

Alberto Paz struggles with this question of lead and follow in Gotta Tango -
a book whose style of writing, describing and dancing I don't like - and
calls it marking or La Marca. Marking has a different usage and meaning
here relating to the practice of dance choreography.

No doubt everyone will still use the terms of leading and following but
nevertheless in the context of the question I believe it's important that
your lady with the question understands that following in tango actually
requires an active participation, not a passive one, but it is not back-
leading. Equally it should be understood that the man, having initiated
a movement, should wait for the lady to complete the movement and
sometimes follow her before continuing and so on.
This is a gross simplification of the subtleties.

 

[AndaBien]

...following in tango actually
requires an active participation, not a passive one...

I would say that in any couple dance followers can follow actively or passively. If they merely do what I lead them to do, I don't enjoy them as a partner. I prefer for my partners to "bring their dance" to the floor.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Equally it should be understood that the man, having initiated
a movement, should wait for the lady to complete the movement and
sometimes follow her before continuing and so on.

with the qualifier that, since you are both dancing to the same music, the movement should make sense in the context of that music and not completed at some random moment.
I ran into this recently with someone who has been working on several of the basics related to form (such as collecting, maintaining and axis, etc, she now has beautiful extension) and has yet to add the musicality part. (Yes, I wait for her. And we mostly talked about how much I love dancing to the music. These things take time. I understand that.)

You did add a quailfier, which I haven't found again after a quick read through.

and sometimes follow her before continuing

There was another time when I got a big ocho that I don't think I led, and I was just ready to respond, when she opened her eyes with that "where are we and what are we doing?". I just laughed and she laughed, and I explained that I was prepared to tango on, and we had a good discussion about that, too.

 

[bordertangoman]

with the qualifier that, since you are both dancing to the same music, the movement should make sense in the context of that music and not completed at some random moment. .

i agree with this... practicing some boleos with a student last night. they only worke when the music was right for her...she couldnt do them softly but wanted a nice strong beat to work to.

and with another partner practicing adornos; i had to say forget half of what you're doing becuase it wont fit in the musical time.

I ran into this recently with someone who has been working on several of the basics related to form (such as collecting, maintaining and axis, etc, she now has beautiful extension) and has yet to add the musicality part. (Yes, I wait for her. And we mostly talked about how much I love dancing to the music. These things take time. I understand that.)

.

I said I might be in a minority of one!

my experience of contact improvisation where the interaction between partners is an inter-action that what happens in tango and what you are describing are just semantics. would any woman dance if she felt to be merely an accessory to the man's dance. i doubt it.

It may well be the case that ladies prefer the freedom of expression that modern jive offers, rather the sublimation of tango..

 

[JohnEm]

my experience of contact improvisation where the interaction between partners is an inter-action that what happens in tango and what you are describing are just semantics. would any woman dance if she felt to be merely an accessory to the man's dance. i doubt it.

It's not intended to be semantics - it's the inter-action I'm advocating and
the improvisation to the music but not contact improvisation, that's a
different tango.

You seem to be twisting my words, I'm not advocating that any woman
would be happy being a mere accessory but saying that the use of lead
and follow descriptions could be inferred as such a way.

It may well be the case that ladies prefer the freedom of expression that modern jive offers, rather the sublimation of tango..

Well that's a moot point about jive but no matter.
What did you mean by "the sublimation" of tango?

 

[Subliminal]

I would like to propose a new forum rule. When talking about open embrace or close embrace with no shared axis, we will refer to this lesser form of connection as Lead and Follow. However, when dancing in the true close embrace, connection will be known as the Magical Unity Rainbow. As in, "I had a wonderful tanda with that follower. The strength of our Magical Unity Rainbow made it feel as if we were flying through the music."

 

[Steve Pastor]

There are few instructors of tango that seem capable of teaching a more interactive form of AT that is analogous to contact improvisation, and way fewer dancers who study enough, and with the right focus to learn to do it.
Mostly what you get are men who react to what women do unintentionally, rather than women who consciously and purposefully influence their partners as part of a dialogue.

Ladies, correct me if I've got this wrong, but I've gotten the impression based on what I read here, and information gathered by dancing and talking, that most highly skilled women are reluctant to go there because they know most men don't want to go there (just like many many women tell me the guys "correct" them when their axis is "too far forward" and there is "too much weight" on them).

Again, these improvisational skills seem to be rare in the AT world. And while I don't know from "jive", our West Coast Swing offers lots of "freedom" for women. So far, at least, I see no shortage of women who accept a traditional female role when they dance, including At, but also our country western dances.
And, see, in my world view, "tradional female role" is by no means restricted to being submissive.

 

[bordertangoman]

It's not intended to be semantics - it's the inter-action I'm advocating and
the improvisation to the music but not contact improvisation, that's a
different tango.

You seem to be twisting my words, I'm not advocating that any woman
would be happy being a mere accessory but saying that the use of lead
and follow descriptions could be inferred as such a way.

Well that's a moot point about jive but no matter.
What did you mean by "the sublimation" of tango?

well I'm trying to twist your words into a truth that is called tango..and it has improvisation and it has contact but its not contact improv..someone has to lead and someone has to follow and 99% of the time its the bloke that initiates the move and the woman follows.
yes its active following, and yes I think you are stuck in semantics; are you the sort of person who calls a spade an earth moving implement?

and using the word marca adds nothing to the debate.

its perfectly fine for describing what one does in close embrace.

sublime adj:

2. inspiring deep veneration, awe, or uplifting emotion because of its beauty, nobility, grandeur, or immensity

 

[doornail]

Recently I had an interesting conversation with someone when we'd finished dancing a lovely tanda together. She asked me whether she'd been back-leading me. I was completely stumped at the time because I didn't know why she was asking. I'd not felt like I was being 'back-led'.

She explained that she'd thought a few times of moving in a certain direction or with a certain timing, and wasn't entirely sure whether she'd followed me or I'd followed her.

I thought about this over the last few days, and I realised that maybe I'd had a glimpse of another one of those 'click' moments that I might sooner or later get. Maybe I did get a glimpse of a truly shared dance (until then I already thought I knew what that meant, even if not how to achieve it).

That's one of the many things I love (and hate) about tango. Just when you think you've at least figured out how much there is you don't know, you realise there's a whole other level that you DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT!