What makes a waltz a waltz for you?

[Peaches]

As a variation on that theme, I was interested to read (in another discussion the other day) how many were claiming to be sublimely unconcerned with the actual pulse or rhythm of the music, but seemingly, as soon as they dance vals, are very well aware, if not actually counting.

Strange difference of approach.

Well, if you're thinking of me, you're not paying attention to what I said. I don't pay attention to the beats, pretty much ever. But beats != pulse != rhythm...both of which I am extremely aware of. Always. That doesn't change regardless of if I'm dancing tango, milonga or vals.

The fact that I can listen to it and pick it out as being 3/4, or 6/8 or 12/8 timing is a completely separate matter.

 

[Dave Bailey]

As a variation on that theme, I was interested to read (in another discussion the other day) how many were claiming to be sublimely unconcerned with the actual pulse or rhythm of the music, but seemingly, as soon as they dance vals, are very well aware, if not actually counting.

Strange difference of approach.

To me - and I admit it's just a personal view - I find that the rhythms in vals and milonga are more "insistent" than in traditional tango; there seems to be less flexibility about the interpretation, and more of an expectation to "obey the beat" to an extent.

 

[shutterbox]

If we don't want to fall in the stereotypes, we should avoid generic anwsers: the way the music is translated to dance depends on many factors, including the partner you are dancing with, the floor, the crowdness of the milonga, the piece that you are dancing, and of course, the orchestra that is playing. Because if you compare the same "Desde el alma" played by d'arienzo, canaro and by pugliese you can clearly see that they are totally different worlds. ..

So, resuming: circular movements, linear movements, flow, not flow, smooth steps, strong steps, soft steps, pauses...

Best post so far.

 

[BallandChange]

Some of the traditional characterisitics of the waltz such as the rise and fall, swing and sway, continuity of movement.

 

[Peaches]

Some of the traditional characterisitics of the waltz such as the rise and fall, swing and sway, continuity of movement.

For ballroom waltz, sure. But do you mean to say that you think of the same characteristics applying to Argentine tango vals?

 

[UKDancer]

Well, Waltz is Waltz and Vals isn't, so why not?

 

[Peaches]

Maybe because, I dunno, it's a question posed in the AT forum, which is supposed to be about AT topics primarily, by an AT dancer? And because often vals is called "tango waltz?"

 

[UKDancer]

To me - and I admit it's just a personal view - I find that the rhythms in vals and milonga are more "insistent" than in traditional tango; there seems to be less flexibility about the interpretation, and more of an expectation to "obey the beat" to an extent.

My perception is that there is less range of rhythmic flexibility within the basic pulse/beat in vals compared with tango. Some tango has a barely discernable pulse and almost no identifiable rhythm, whereas some, D'Arienzo or Biagi, in particular, almost demands 'obedience' to the given pattern (which doesn't result in a particular pattern of steps being led, but does dictate the timing of them).

I haven't heard the same range in vals, but it's the musical form with which I am least familiar.

 

[chanchan]

Well, Waltz is Waltz and Vals isn't, so why not?

Vals is Waltz, but we are talking about Vals Criollo aka Vals Argentino aka Tango Vals, which is an argentine musical style derived from original waltz, and is danced more or less like a tango.

My perception is that there is less range of rhythmic flexibility within the basic pulse/beat in vals compared with tango.

Please listen to the three examples that I mentioned before: you will find all the rhythmic flexibility of tango.

 

[opendoor]

Well, Waltz is Waltz and Vals isn't, so why not?

Waltz is Vals is Walzer is Valso is Valassi is Valzer is Valcer is Valse is 圓舞曲 .....


(hope the three chinese characters stand for the three counts... ;-)

 

[UKDancer]

Waltz is Vals is Walzer is Valso is Valassi is Valzer is Valcer is Valse is 圓舞曲 .....


(hope the three chinese characters stand for the three counts... ;-)

And therefore you have to acknowledge ...

... the traditional characterisitics of the waltz such as the rise and fall, swing and sway, continuity of movement

or make the distinction. The poster doesn't come from the AT world (I don't think) and just addressed the title of the discussion (I guess). Goodness, you lot take yourselves so seriously - lighten up!

 

[UKDancer]

Please listen to the three examples that I mentioned before: you will find all the rhythmic flexibility of tango.

Just have: yes, they're very different. The Pugliese (I don't know how many times he recorded it, mine's from 'Ausencia') could very easily catch you out, if you weren't concentrating!

 

[dchester]

My perception is that there is less range of rhythmic flexibility within the basic pulse/beat in vals compared with tango. Some tango has a barely discernable pulse and almost no identifiable rhythm, whereas some, D'Arienzo or Biagi, in particular, almost demands 'obedience' to the given pattern (which doesn't result in a particular pattern of steps being led, but does dictate the timing of them).

I haven't heard the same range in vals, but it's the musical form with which I am least familiar.

I really like some of the vals by D'Arienzo and Biagi. However, I really don't like that many of Biagi's tangos, the way I like D'Arienzo's tangos.

Could you give me an example of a song that you say has almost no identifiable rhythm?

 

[UKDancer]

Could you give me an example of a song that you say has almost no identifiable rhythm?

Not easily, from memory, but I'm not thinking in terms of any Golden Age material (of which I have lots), but of more modern stuff (not originally written as tango music). It meanders off with no 'pattern' to the pulse when you can hear one, and while others can dance to it, I have yet to acquire the knack.

I have a friend who plays such stuff all the time, and she keeps offering me copies, which I politely decline ...

I just haven't noticed that vals is danced to such material - but as I say, it is the form I least familiar with.

 

[Zoopsia59]

Particularly followers, what they like to feel.

I like to feel a consistent flow and movement around the floor. I'm personally not a fan of pauses (not to be confused with holding a beat) Some of the tricky leg stuff that leaders love to throw into tango just interrupt the smoothness and flow of a vals. I especially find sandwiches to be a complete break in the feeling. A good use of segments that step on every beat is nice, interspersed with dancing on the 1.

In my experience (as a sideline to the ballroom thread) very few leaders do vals well (or should I say, very few do it as I like it). The few that I've found who do have all learned another form of Waltz tempo social dancing such as America Waltz, Viennese Waltz or a "folk" waltz from another country (before they learned tango) One of my favorite leaders learned a form of either Eastern European or Scandinavian traditional waltz long before he took up tango.

Sometimes doing a nuevo style tango with sweeping boleos and such can be fun even though it tends to travel less. However, it still needs space for all that leg action, so it's not a solution to a crowded floor.

To me ganchos don't go well with waltz. Slow wraps/unwraps (as part of the aforementioned nuevo styling) can work, but ganchos tend to have a "snappiness" to them that I don't feel suits the feeling of waltz tempo music.

As a disclaimer, I'll admit that I also learned other types of Waltz before learning tango so that may play a huge part in my preferences.

I guess the crux of it for me is to move as a unit expressing the rhythm as smoothly and consistently as possible, flowing around the floor with a feeling of "floating". If it's a tight crowd, that will require heavy use of circular patterns since travel linearly is limited. Save the footsy games and fancy tricks for a tanda of tango.