OK, if you are talking about alternative music, then I don't need an example. I suspect I know what you are talking about (whereas I wasn't so sure before).
What makes a waltz a waltz for you?
- Thread starter Subliminal
- Start date
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point. If so, my response won't really address it...
Vals is defined by having a waltz tempo time signature. It isn't really defined by having specific steps that differ from tango. The steps (or patterns) used in waltz are all used in tango as well (but the reverse is where the problems come in)
On the other hand, "Tango" (in North America anyway) is defined by dancing in a tango style to whatever music is playing (as long as it isn't milonga or vals) So "tango music" can have all kinds of different tempos, styles, instrumentations, orchestrations, etc. It can be pretty much anything from traditional Golden age tango music, to Gotan, to some other popular music (or obscure music) that the DJ found and decided to give a whirl.
Basically, when music comes on at a milonga, people figure out whether it is
A) Tango
B) Milonga
C) Vals or
D) a break from Argentine Tango to do a Latin, Swing or ballroom dance (in which case, people who don't know that dance sit out)
So everything that gets played is analyzed first by the "AT or not AT" filter and unless it CLEARLY falls into the "not AT" category because it is some other specific dance, it is placed into A,B, or C.
Since B and C are defined more rigidly, everything else goes into A: Tango.
It's the big paradox of how AT is morphing (and what upsets the purists) "Tango" means dancing movement that is part of the overall AT family of styles (be it neo, nuevo, V, milonguero etc) to whatever music is played. However, even in the AT world, vals is defined by the tempo of the music being a waltz time signature.
So "tango" is defined by how you are moving regardless of the music and "vals" is defined by the time signature of the music.
And that may be why so few tango leaders I know can express vals any differently from tango. They hear that it is a different tempo and say "Oh it's a vals", but they just dance it the same way they would any other "tango". Since they already do "tango" to a wide variety of music, waltz tempo is just another piece of music they "tango" to. For someone who has danced waltz tempo outside of the AT world, it doesn't feel right... it doesn't feel like WALTZING. (usually because it lacks flow)
Defined? By whom? What is the vals tempo, and again, who says so? I know that both BR (Slow) Waltz and Viennese Waltz have standard tempi, but vals music (certainly that in my own modest collection) varies quite widely.
I'd readily agree that it has a distinctive rhythm (123 123 with a primary stress on the first of each group of three beats), and that the music is 'quite fast', but beyond that, there seems to be a wide range of of both tempi and time signatures in use. But this I can hear for myself. I don't look to anyone's definition.
Obviously, you can apply this fundamental objection to your methodology of determining what is tango too, and for the same reason, but surely our ears are the best guide?
This may be a semantics thing. I don't know that a specific tempo is a defined thing, but they tend to be similar to the tempo of a Viennese Waltz (but they don't have to be).
To me, she was saying the triplets (3 beat thing) in the music is what defines it, rather than the specific steps that are used.
Well, then you could dance Viennese Waltz, perfectly successfully to most vals music, flekerls and all. But it wouldn't be vals, would it? Or would it?
Equally, I can't go for a definition of tango that says the music is anything that tango can be danced to. I could tango to Michael Jackson (I wouldn't, I assure you), but if I did, the dance would still be tango (just), but the music wouldn't be tango music.
And (and this is the semantics point) I don't accept that there is anything at all that can be given as 'defined' as there is no body (of any sort) doing the defining. We each have our own working vocabulary of terms, and varying degrees of agreement about what we all mean by them, but in many areas there is as much disagreement as agreement over even the most trivial things.
I think it would be better if it were not so, but others hold the opposite view. But as for a source of authority: I wouldn't expect to find it in North America!
opendoor
Forum Master
I´m not that sure that I´ve got what you meant (my english isn´t that nauanced)
I mean, Waltz, Vals, Walzer, ... or whatever you may call it, is kind of an attitude towards life, and you can express it in every waltz style, regardless of whether scottish or polish. So when I dance argentine vals I feel closer to the vienneee waltz than to a tango.
I don't know enough about Viennese Waltz (the dance), to have an opinion on it.
That is a debate that tango people love (or hate?) to discuss.
Thus we continually debate many (if not all) aspect of the dance. About the only we tango people seem to agree on is that ballroom = evil.
(Just Kidding, BTW)
I don't know about the source of authority, but I certainly don't claim to be a voice of authority (I'm just a student of the dance). Though I often say that there are an awful lot of preferences being passed off as rules.
BTW, despite what some people say, not everyone in Argentina agrees on what tango is about either. Two of the broad categories are the people who say it is about the steps, and people who say it is about the "connection" (an emotional state or feeling). Where I might be different from some people, is that some songs inspire me to dance more for the steps, while other songs inspire me to dance more for the connection.
opendoor
Forum Master
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
Discussions of this nature often spiral out of control. Which is why in the original post I specified what does Vals mean to YOU. What I am mostly curious about is how do people dance it. What do they do different from regular AT songs? What do they do that is the same?
Some good examples in this thread. But I don't want it to spiral out of control. There is no central authority, it's true, and we never ever want to bring up the "What is tango?" question. It has been beaten horribly to death, buried, dug up, beaten some more, burned, and had the ashes fashioned into a post-modern sculpture of a horse which was again struck repeatedly with a mallet.
For the purpose of this discussion, as the original poster, I am defining Vals as "A dance performed to 3/4 or 6/8 music that uses the Argentine Tango Connection and Embrace."
If you put this in the context of the REST of my post, it should be clear that I'm talking about how people at a milonga relate to it. I'm not trying to make some all encompassing definition for all time and all people throughout the whole world and history that should go in some Master Dictionary of Music.
At a milonga, people hear a waltz time signature and say "Oh it's a vals". That's what I meant by being defined... Defined in people's minds when they hear it come on and are deciding what to do or whether to dance.
They hear a waltz rhythm and say "Oh it's vals"
They hear Milonga, Condombe and some other stuff of that ilk and say "Oh, it's Milonga" (they might say "Is this Milonga?" to which invariably someone nearby will say "Yes" even though technically, they're wrong)
They hear Salsa, Chacha, or Swing and say "Oh its a break from AT, but I don't know chacha so I'll get a drink."
Everything else they hear goes into the "tango" category. It might go into their "I don't like this sort of music for tango" category, but it still is part of that big mishmash also known as "Not vals, milonga or a break from AT"
In the US, frequently "tango" means the way you move regardless of the music, but "Vals" means a certain time signature/rhythm, regardless of how you move. That's why I say it's a bit of a paradox dealing with the two.
Oh for pete's sake... forget that I used the word "defined"... I was talking about how many people RELATE to it. How they relate to Tango vs how they relate to vals. Because of the influence of alternative tango dance styles, music, events, and venues, they still call something "vals" based on the music, but they think of something as "tango" based on how they dance to it regardless of the music.
BTW - my partner throws in VW frequently when dancing to Argentine vals music. I don't analyze whether it is Waltz vs vals.
I also realized I misused the term "tempo" when I was meaning rhythm or time signature... as DC said.. the "triplets" forms of rhythm. Tempo is something else obviously.. so sorry for that confusion. I've heard people refer to Waltz tempo when they meant waltz time siggie, so it just slipped out.
Since it makes heavy use of a cross position, it actually pairs nicely with vals music or dancing waltzes at milongas. It's easy to get in and out of the VW pattern to mix it with AT moves.
Subliminal
Well-Known Member
Yep, I've lead a natural and reverse turn before. Seems like cheating though.
I actually prefer a variant my teacher showed me, with an Alteration. It's more flowy than even the VW turns, imo.