What should tango vals look and feel like?

#21
Don´t know if I got you right. What do you mean with "another"? different, perhaps? The problem is, that vals hasn´t got a different rhythm. Vals is a dance of it´s own, with a totally different appeal.

In this sense I cannot agree with the title of your thread, at all! Vals argentino isn´t Tango stepping in 3/4 signature!
I think that that's what BTM was saying himself: that he's observing folk dancing Vals as if it were Tango but just with a different rhythm, where it shouldn't be.

Though, as you say, it isn't particularly correct, 'Tango Vals' is an extremely commonly used phrase... though 'Vals Argentino' is better, I've never heard anybody say it - is that what you tend to call it in Germany?
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#22
Vals argentino isn´t Tango in 3/4 signature!
Ah, but it is played with a "tango sensibility" and with the same instruments as a tango group or orchestra.
I'd say this is similar to, and as dificult for non musicians (including me) to discuss in the same way that "swing" is difficult to put into words.
Although I've made some headway in understanding characteristics of swing music, I've haven't reached that point with AT.
Most people, though, would be able to heard the difference between "ballroom" waltz music with it's strict, or "lockstep" rhythm and phrasing, and Argentine val music.

(popular American country western music went from "swing" to "lock step" as the swing era ended)
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#23
the problem is that most tango dancers are too slow moving around the floor; the line of dance needs a speed minimum otherwise its like being a porsche in the slow lane of a motorway.
Oh I do agree with you.
If only people waltzed to the Vals and moved!

So many seem to have no idea of what they're missing.

But then lots of people do their tango (their tango not being my tango)
to the Milonga seemingly oblivious that the music is not tango.

I think the standard tempo for Viennese Waltz is 180 BPM. Some Tango Vals are that slow (yes, slow), but many are quicker, up to around 230 BPM. That would be a brisk Viennese Waltz.
It would indeed be quick, too quick. And I certainly wouldn't be trying
to dance on every beat, even syncopations (beats 1 and 2 or 1 and 1,3)
might be very challenging.

In fact 230bpm seems extreme. Very sadly I've been briefly beat counting
and Vals seems to range from a slow 160bpm (54 bars/min) to around and
a little above the 210bpm (70 bars/min) mark. I'd be quite happy hitting
every beat at 60 bars per minute (180bpm) and maybe even a little quicker
with the right partner. When I'm dancing I'm not counting so cannot be sure
and it depends on whether I think my partner is going to be comfortable
and enjoy it. You can tell by the end of the first dance.

Incidentally my ballroom book quotes the Viennese tempo as 60 bars per minute,
with latitude for amateur tests ranging between 50 and 60 bars per minute.
Victor Sylvester (another book) says the Viennese can be danced to any waltz
played between 44 and 64 bars per minute.
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#24
.. what you tend to call it in Germany?
The majority just calls it vals, a minority tango vals, or vals cruzado, and I am going to spread the word vals argentino:

Already 74 hits on YT for vals argentino, and 9.990 at Google. But, that´s not my achievement.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#25
Don´t know if I got you right. What do you mean with "another"? different, perhaps? The problem is, that vals hasn´t got a different rhythm. Vals is a dance of it´s own, with a totally different appeal.

In this sense I cannot agree with the title of your thread, at all! Vals argentino isn´t Tango stepping in 3/4 signature!
like this?

[yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RfOM8pxafzg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RfOM8pxafzg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]
 

AndaBien

Well-Known Member
#28
...Incidentally my ballroom book quotes the Viennese tempo as 60 bars per minute, with latitude for amateur tests ranging between 50 and 60 bars per minute. Victor Sylvester (another book) says the Viennese can be danced to any waltz
played between 44 and 64 bars per minute.
That's correct. 60 bars (measures) x 3 beats/measure is 180 beats/minute. As I understand the acronym, BPM is beats per minute.
 

Steve Pastor

Moderator
Staff member
#31
Sorry. I probably shouldn't have thrown that term in there.

It is a term that was used in one of the many books I've been looking at that refers to the variable, rather than strictly on the beat each and every beat, timing the is characteristic of swing.

I like to be able to supply a reference for things I write, but right now this one eludes me.
While at lunch I dredged up "arrasta" from my tango subconscious as an example of where the musicians vary the playing of notes, thus facilitating the dancers doing the same. Not sure if this is exactly what I am talking about, though.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#34
You can't be being serious. It's skilful of course. But . . .
How can this be any sort of example of Vals for social dancing?
Yes I am serious if tango dancers had a tenth of the feel of these circular musical movements then they would be dancing vals... as it is...as I said in my original post....

the equivalent of "it dont mean a thing if it aint got that swing."
 
#35
But surely most Vals is danced on the first beat of three only,
By default, yes, I believe that's the convention. Although other beats can be used also.

Ghost has written a Tango Vals introduction, from there, there's a couple of examples of videos from Detlef and Melina. It's interesting that in one of those examples, there's an emphasis on rotation, but in the other, the emphasis is on timing changes.

So I'm not sure I'd call a Vals inherently rotation-based. But I don't know enough about it to have a strong opinion.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#37
By default, yes, I believe that's the convention. Although other beats can be used also.

So I'm not sure I'd call a Vals inherently rotation-based. But I don't know enough about it to have a strong opinion.
I think rotation conveys the feeling of the music better; if one looks at a waltz
two variations; Michael and Beatrice
slow
[yt]WeXD2pr-jZw[/yt]

This is in contrast to the other video showing smooth dance , where the action is on the upper body, here the action is mostly in the feet.
[yt]ypgmR5NVG7g[/yt]
 

opendoor

Well-Known Member
#38
... if tango dancers had a tenth of the feel of these circular musical movements then they would be dancing vals...
.. btm, I don´t think that the circular flow only is important. The rhythmical interpretation is as vital. I mean that stepping on every quarter note, but not in the vw manner, I mean something that goes into the 6/8 signature direction of the vals criollo.

But, uncontradicted: the tango lesson choreo is really nice: the stepping varies, sometimes P. takes only 2 steps per measure, than passages follow with the accent on the first, on the second, or on the third beat: as short as it is 0:40-0:50 is a real treasure. And so complex. Once I watched it perhaps 100 times to figure out the alteraciónes, escapadas, and rebotes!

[YT]5HwJWagV6Go[/YT]
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#39
.. btm, I don´t think that the circular flow only is important. The rhythmical interpretation is as vital. I mean that stepping on every quarter note, but not in the vw manner, I mean something that goes into the 6/8 signature direction of the vals criollo.

But, uncontradicted: the tango lesson choreo is really nice: the stepping varies, sometimes P. takes only 2 steps per measure, than passages follow with the accent on the first, on the second, or on the third beat: as short as it is 0:40-0:50 is a real treasure. And so complex. Once I watched it perhaps 100 times to figure out the alteraciónes, escapadas, and rebotes!

[YT]we2l1XRQL60[/YT]
only 100 times! its not enough!
 

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