What should tango vals look and feel like?

[ant]

Originally Posted by UKDancer
But surely most Vals is danced on the first beat of three only

I think you would nearly always dance on the 1 beat. I regually come across dancing on the 1,2 or 1,3 or 1,2,3. I have not come across dancing on the 2 or 3 or 2,3 before but I suppose that is possible.

Originally Posted by Peaches or on half beats to emphasize various things...or or or... Kinda like tango and milonga, unsurprisingly.

but I have not come across dancing on the half beat before and other variations implied in the above post, I find these difficult to conceptulise. Indeed the arguement always seems to be whether it is correct to call dancing on the 1,2 or 1,3 double time or not.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Sweet!
Milonga and Vals are my two favorite flavors of the AT experience. Some posts have touched on some of the reasons already.

Does anyone teach Vals?
In 2004 Steven Payne in Portland, OR taught a 5 week long course titled "Turns and Vals Musicality" at Alex Krebs' Tango Berretin. Steven has not been teaching classes for several yeears now. I think this is a great loss to the Portland AT community.
I haven't been watching the classes offered, so I can't say what is being taught, or not taught today.

"Ballroom" waltz used to be more varied, making use of with the canter rhythm and the single step or "Hesitation waltz". The time period was the early 1900s, but I can't even give you a decade or decades.

For what ever reason that versitility has been retained in Argentine vals and the dancing associated with it.

 

[Ampster]

But surely most Vals is danced on the first beat of three only, whereas Viennese Waltz is always danced on each beat. That makes a huge difference to the 'speed' of the dance.

Yes, and no. It depends on the music, the mood, and the conditions on the floor. Sometimes, you can do this, sometimes, you dance on each beat, sometimes every other beat applies, sometimes you ignore the beats and dance to the rhythm, sometimes you do all of these several times in the space of one song while going slow because the floor is packed. Then, you keep this up with a partner for one tanda (a set of four songs)

My point is, "Vals" (not ballroom) is more dynamic, and would be be difficult to put into stringent ballroom rules for it to work. That's where the improvisation comes in handy.

 

[opendoor]

What on earth is tango vals?

..what I see at milongas are people treating it as just another rhythm to step to..

Don´t know if I got you right. What do you mean with "another"? different, perhaps? The problem is, that vals hasn´t got a different rhythm. Vals is a dance of it´s own, with a totally different appeal.

In this sense I cannot agree with the title of your thread, at all! Vals argentino isn´t Tango stepping in 3/4 signature!

 

[AndaBien]

..."Ballroom" waltz used to be more varied, making use of with the canter rhythm and the single step or "Hesitation waltz". The time period was the early 1900s, but I can't even give you a decade or decades...

The Hesitation Waltz was popular in the Ragtime era, 1900 to 1914 (WWI). There were a few other hesitations also, besides the full measure hesitation. There were some other variations on the waltz, including the Boston and I think a 5-count waltz.

 

[v22TTC]

Don´t know if I got you right. What do you mean with "another"? different, perhaps? The problem is, that vals hasn´t got a different rhythm. Vals is a dance of it´s own, with a totally different appeal.

In this sense I cannot agree with the title of your thread, at all! Vals argentino isn´t Tango stepping in 3/4 signature!

I think that that's what BTM was saying himself: that he's observing folk dancing Vals as if it were Tango but just with a different rhythm, where it shouldn't be.

Though, as you say, it isn't particularly correct, 'Tango Vals' is an extremely commonly used phrase... though 'Vals Argentino' is better, I've never heard anybody say it - is that what you tend to call it in Germany?

 

[Steve Pastor]

Vals argentino isn´t Tango in 3/4 signature!

Ah, but it is played with a "tango sensibility" and with the same instruments as a tango group or orchestra.
I'd say this is similar to, and as dificult for non musicians (including me) to discuss in the same way that "swing" is difficult to put into words.
Although I've made some headway in understanding characteristics of swing music, I've haven't reached that point with AT.
Most people, though, would be able to heard the difference between "ballroom" waltz music with it's strict, or "lockstep" rhythm and phrasing, and Argentine val music.

(popular American country western music went from "swing" to "lock step" as the swing era ended)

 

[JohnEm]

the problem is that most tango dancers are too slow moving around the floor; the line of dance needs a speed minimum otherwise its like being a porsche in the slow lane of a motorway.

Oh I do agree with you.
If only people waltzed to the Vals and moved!

So many seem to have no idea of what they're missing.

But then lots of people do their tango (their tango not being my tango)
to the Milonga seemingly oblivious that the music is not tango.

I think the standard tempo for Viennese Waltz is 180 BPM. Some Tango Vals are that slow (yes, slow), but many are quicker, up to around 230 BPM. That would be a brisk Viennese Waltz.

It would indeed be quick, too quick. And I certainly wouldn't be trying
to dance on every beat, even syncopations (beats 1 and 2 or 1 and 1,3)
might be very challenging.

In fact 230bpm seems extreme. Very sadly I've been briefly beat counting
and Vals seems to range from a slow 160bpm (54 bars/min) to around and
a little above the 210bpm (70 bars/min) mark. I'd be quite happy hitting
every beat at 60 bars per minute (180bpm) and maybe even a little quicker
with the right partner. When I'm dancing I'm not counting so cannot be sure
and it depends on whether I think my partner is going to be comfortable
and enjoy it. You can tell by the end of the first dance.

Incidentally my ballroom book quotes the Viennese tempo as 60 bars per minute,
with latitude for amateur tests ranging between 50 and 60 bars per minute.
Victor Sylvester (another book) says the Viennese can be danced to any waltz
played between 44 and 64 bars per minute.

 

[opendoor]

.. what you tend to call it in Germany?

The majority just calls it vals, a minority tango vals, or vals cruzado, and I am going to spread the word vals argentino:

Already 74 hits on YT for vals argentino, and 9.990 at Google. But, that´s not my achievement.

 

[bordertangoman]

Don´t know if I got you right. What do you mean with "another"? different, perhaps? The problem is, that vals hasn´t got a different rhythm. Vals is a dance of it´s own, with a totally different appeal.

In this sense I cannot agree with the title of your thread, at all! Vals argentino isn´t Tango stepping in 3/4 signature!

like this?

[yt]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RfOM8pxafzg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RfOM8pxafzg?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/yt]

 

[JohnEm]

Most people, though, would be able to heard the difference between "ballroom" waltz music with it's strict, or "lockstep" rhythm and phrasing, and Argentine val music.

Ok, you've got me Steve.
What is lockstep rhythm?

 

[opendoor]

These two examples may show the diffenrent approaches:

-Julio Balmaceder & Corina = tango steps to vals music
-Sebastian Arce & Mariana Montes = mainly from 0:35 on vals steps to vals music.

[YT]P8nJ03utgA8[/YT]

and

[YT]bmM3K0Fxz74[/YT]

 

[AndaBien]

...Incidentally my ballroom book quotes the Viennese tempo as 60 bars per minute, with latitude for amateur tests ranging between 50 and 60 bars per minute. Victor Sylvester (another book) says the Viennese can be danced to any waltz
played between 44 and 64 bars per minute.

That's correct. 60 bars (measures) x 3 beats/measure is 180 beats/minute. As I understand the acronym, BPM is beats per minute.

 

[UKDancer]

Ok, you've got me Steve.
What is lockstep rhythm?

I was wondering the same.

 

[v22TTC]

... and I am going to spread the word vals argentino

Consider me a convert.