I think the organisers should not allow in more people than the floor can hold. This will still mean that the floor is very very crowded at times but I think you need to learn how to deal with that.
What steps should never be taught?
- Thread starter Dave Bailey
- Start date
I think the organisers should not allow in more people than the floor can hold. This will still mean that the floor is very very crowded at times but I think you need to learn how to deal with that.
I think teachers should be honest and then it is up to the student to decide.
opendoor
Forum Master
Dacore, concerning tango I follow absolutely the constructivistical way. Every initiative should come from the student. This is what I first meant with..
Well, as I eventually became to appreciate connection, I'd say that's not quite true. Sure, it made the journey a little longer, but you know what, I enjoyed the journey (well at least most of it). Also, it's not like I have no interest in some of the "fancy" steps. While they are not the "main course" of my dance, it's nice to be able to occasionally add some garnishes to it.
I wanted to comment on this yesterday, but wanted to make sure I had my facts straight.
"Jorge Marquez, a dancer of Pompeya, is said to have invented the gancho."
Tango the Art History of Love page 257
citing Averna, Los olvidados bailarines de tango page 32
All I could find out about Marquez was a mention of him in the interview at this url
http://web.archive.org/web/20101129003800/http://totango.net/e_ginterview2.html
"There was one named Jorge marquez, In the 50s. he was a big name. He would come to teach me in the practica. People would come to watch. And he was very popular."
Thompsom writes that dancers in the 40s, he writes specifically of 23 individuals he identifies as the Club Nelson Men. "New moves were their goal."
"Most of the changes stemmed from Lavandina and Perroleo, who rethought tango."
"Further new sequences surged out of the clubs: raspadas, traspies, and boleos."
"In sum Petroleo and his colleagues challenged the dance status quo."
Here is more
Hence, he (Petroleo) undertook, with his friend Salvador Sciana, El Negro Lavandina, to invigorate the old figures. The two accomplices spent their evenings at the Nelson Club practicing. They excelled in inventing steps and streamlining the figures. They refine the ganchos so well that they are attributed with their authorship. It’s in the clubs of the barrios that the two milongueros test their latest discoveries before they spread them to the milongas.
http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm
So, all of this started in the 1940s, and it appears that it was taught in practicas and danced at milongas in Buenos Aires during the Golden Age.
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It is not clear to me whether the article says that the gancho was an old step that was reinvigorated or a newly invented step.
tangomonkey
Active Member
Thompson's book (Tango the Art History of Love) was an eye-opener. Since its origins Tango has always changed and developed. Personal opinions about what is and isn't tango are just that, opinions. As Steve noted, Thompson writes about Petroleo, Lavandina and many others who experimented and added/developed new figures in the 40's. Some examples: rapid giros, enrosque, elaborate piques, raspadas, traspies, boleos, lapiz, gancho. These steps/figures were developed by seasoned dancers for the dance halls, not the stage. Copes and Nieves then elaborated further and became performers, touring, starting in the mid 50's.
I can't recommend the book too highly!
I can't recommend the book too highly!
If someone could find and read this article, we might be able to know with more certainty.
For me the most important thing here is that the conservative Golden Age dancing we keep hearing about seems to be a modern interpretation of what AT is, rather than what actually went on at that time.
Whatever you do though, and whatever you teach, you should respect other dancers, and you should teach people about that as well.
I do wish that AT dancers (often of any style!) would be less self absorbed on the dance floor.
opendoor
Forum Master
Hi Steve, the Gancho is much older than the tango itself. And it is one of the invariable earmarks of this dance (may be the only one that survived) at all. The gancho belongs to the black heritage of the tango. But (in white tango) ganchos for the women were impossible for a long time (see the clothes in old footage), but men ganchos were abundant right yet from the beginning up to now. You know tango history is not the history of tango, it´s the history of Tango de Salón. And remember not to leave the exegesis over to argentines nor to converts!
tangomonkey
Active Member
Thompson spends several chapters writing about the influence of Afro-Argentines. According to him, many of the steps now considered tango originated from African dance, changed over time. Regarding gancho, he says: "Ganchos are a plausible creolization of old Kongo dance games of sexual pursuit. Unsurprisingly they go back to canyengue and milonga."
The 40's was a time when new ideas, figures/steps were added to tango. Steps that often had much earlier antecedents. Thompson is careful to say "added" and "developed" rather than "created" when writing about the 40's changes. But he did state "Jorge Marquez...is said to have invented the gancho". The foonote references the article (book?) by Averna which, Steve asked about.
In my experience, most beginners end up quitting anyway. If one were to emphasize connection and musicality over steps, I believe that there would be the same number of students who stick with it, but they would be ones who are more inclined towards good dancing.
LittleLight
New Member
Hmmm, I think that when teachers consistently present AT as a social dance and emphasize the joy to be had that way, lead by example, point out YouTube vids of good examples if they want to, in short, let their students know where the real fun is, then their students are less likely to be even asking for circus moves or to want to execute them in milongas.*
It probably doesn't work if you just say "Okay, I'm going to teach you this move, but don't do it", out of the blue, having never mentioned anything before.
*I do agree with Jan, though, there will always be people who just want that kind of stuff to show off how "advanced" they are, but teachers do have a role in making the situation better or worse.
It probably doesn't work if you just say "Okay, I'm going to teach you this move, but don't do it", out of the blue, having never mentioned anything before.
*I do agree with Jan, though, there will always be people who just want that kind of stuff to show off how "advanced" they are, but teachers do have a role in making the situation better or worse.
TM have you quoted the above from the book because my understanding is that ganchos were an integral part of some form of canyengue but I have never had it suggested to me that there was a link to milonga.
As a teacher, I've tried this approach, and it hasn't worked very well. Most students come to class having already seen tango of some sort. Maybe it was on stage; maybe it was at a milonga. In either case, they have already been seduced by the fancy stuff. If you take a complete neophyte to a milonga they will wind up watching the crappy dancers who are doing the fanciest stuff, and they will completely miss the great dancers who are doing nothing to look at.
As an experienced dancer I know how to have a good time doing simple steps. Beginners have no idea how to do this. I've tried presenting classes that focused on doing very basic steps creatively and elegantly. Most of my students practiced the step for about a minute before they decided that they had mastered the step and wanted to move on to something else.