When you are in relation with a tango dancer..

[itwillhappen]

I normally understand all postings on this forum, but I have a little trouble understanding what you are saying... Can you please rephrase, in simple words?

OK, simplified:

The initial question was: whether it's normal for the embrace to significantly deteriorate within a relationship.

My answer is: generally no, but if you'd rather dance alone than with your partner... then yes.
Because according to relationship studies it would be very labor-intensive to compensate for such.

 

[itwillhappen]

I'm puzzled. Why are you stabbing me in the back? Is there anything about me that annoyed or challenged you?

No. This metaphor is too theatrical for me and also distracts from the issue at hand.
But you're probably walking straight into a knife yourself.

 

[opendoor]

Perhaps I did't understand your item at all

 

[brujo]

One of the interesting ideas I see a bit in tango is entrega, kinda this idea of offering. Might be that the embrace with a life partner is easier as you already do this by default.

I was in a class recently and the teacher had this interesting observation —- she said that it felt that people in Buenos Aires were able to put a lot of emotion into their dance because they had a high personal view of themselves, almost an arrogance that allowed them to be ok if this outpouring of emotion was rejected. But in the US, people weren’t used to this type of emotional rejection. So we could either be super protective of it, or better yet, method act this emotion. Pretend the dance partner is your real or imaginary life mate, think about moments in your life that relate to the emotion that the song brings up.

My wife hates dancing. But I found my dances are better when I project all the joy and fun she brings me into the partner connection I have at a milonga. It’s all a fun illusion anyway.

 

[itwillhappen]

Some people change and often become lazy or get bad habits. One guy who has been a very regular partner - on average a tanda or 3 per week for 8 years when we are in the same city: if you had asked me about a wonderful embrace a few years ago, I’d have thought of him first. I still love dancing with him, but I’ve noticed how much more hunched over he dances now. The comfort of being in his arms has now more to do with being in his arms and connection than a tango embrace.

Modern tango is often practiced without any form of ongoing relationship. You're either there or you're not, and if you are, you dance a tanda with someone or you don't. "Dance as a service," so to speak. It can happen that you become lazy over time without even realizing it. After all, there's no one dedicated to you for whom you'd make the effort, who is even entitled to demand a "quality of service".

In a life partnership that developed from tango, I would expect such eventually to become a problem, unless both partners essentially only want shared living costs. So I would see a lack of feeling in the embrace - beyond the fading of initial euphoria - as an early warning sign.

 

[itwillhappen]

Overall, the relationship was going very well.
[...]
On her side, it was certainly competition and rivalry.

And do you think that fits together well?

 

[opendoor]

And do you think that fits together well?

I think it does. Our personalities are never homogeneous and congruent. Jung called certain deep structures shadows. The aforementioned ex partner called her contradictory aspects demons. These demons and shadows are often triggered precisely by closeness and too much harmony. After a breakup, these triggers disappear. We should learn to live with our various deep dimensions and not try to idealize a partnership.

 

[Bailango]

OK, simplified:

The initial question was: whether it's normal for the embrace to significantly deteriorate within a relationship.

My answer is: generally no, but if you'd rather dance alone than with your partner... then yes.
Because according to relationship studies it would be very labor-intensive to compensate for such.

You are correlating the uncorrelated.

The study you cite claims positive to negative ratio of 5:1 or more for a romantic relationship to be happy or not decline. Positive being complementary, etc. Negative being criticism, etc.

What does that have to do with embrace or dancing alone.

 

[itwillhappen]

You are correlating the uncorrelated.

Noting correlations, unlike causality, is often very easy. Proving that something is uncorrelated seems rather difficult to me.
@opendoor described a correlation between the quality of embrace and relationship on/off. I described a correlation between the quality of embrace and the quality of the relationship, which finally didn't improve afterwards. None of this can be generalized., but you can share your personal experiences.

There was also some speculation about possible causalities.

The study you cite claims positive to negative ratio of 5:1 or more for a romantic relationship to be happy or not decline. Positive being complementary, etc. Negative being criticism, etc.

A bunch of studies ran for decades, and that was of course not the only aspect.
I had pointed out that the statement, one prefers dancing alone rather than with partners, might be perceived as criticism by partners.

What does that have to do with embrace or dancing alone.

For the studies, every sensitive touch, in type and duration, counts towards measuring sexuality, from the morning hug&kiss up to satisfaction in bed.

So for tango couples, the tango embrace definitely falls under the category of sexuality. And of course, a statistical correlation was found between sexuality and the quality and longevity of the relationship. I don't remember the details, though; the book is somewhere in the basement.

Another correlation was described by @Brummbaer in a different thread:

I agree. I don't. Wisely I married mine.
And, when we were both working, with kids, we found practice time for our dance of the time. Might have been early at a weekend, or a lunchtime if we could both get to a venue.

So, if you get married and dance together regularly for a long time, then you'll finally have been married for a long time.

 

[Brummbaer]

So for tango couples, the tango embrace definitely falls under the category of sexuality.

I'd say: no, it doesn't. But that depends how far you extend 'sexuality'. And then there's perception and reality.

We've changed and worked on differing abrazo several times for AT. I adjust to a similar, but different, abrazo with others. Sure, you have a tanda with a stranger, but it's a fleeting relationship. Maybe you even look into their soul... I'd put that down as a social aspect. OK, it's 'dance as a service', but there's a fleeting relationship within a tanda. And maybe we're both playing a role, depending on the circumstances. I'm still taking my wife home.

Sure, I dance differently with my wife. We have a more extensive shared vocabulary to deploy as appropriate - and we know, and compensate, each others mistakes.

Don't mistake tango for real life!

 

[opendoor]

So for tango couples, the tango embrace definitely falls under the category of sexuality...

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. Neither with random followers nor with my girlfriend does the "abrazo" have anything to do with sexuality. There's no room for eroticism on the dance floor; the focus is on body control, floorcraft, and musicality. On the contrary, I find the pressure from others is even stronger in the case of a life partner. I can hear them whisper: "Are they still dancing harmoniously?", "Oh, they're still dancing very elegantly!" etc.

..but if you'd rather dance alone than with your partner... then..

I think you've completely misunderstood my point. When you dance tango as long as I have, two things happen. Either you reach your technical limits and lose interest in tango. Or you could take on a more difficult project in dance. Tango allowed me to delve deeply and intensely into dance. And that's why I became interested in modern dance. Unfortunately, that decision came too late. But even today, whenever possible, I enjoy performing solo on stage. Social partner dancing never allows for complete immersion in the music. Sometimes your own body limits you, sometimes the body of your follower limits you, and sometimes it's the ronda and its rules. That's why I seem to recall that I once wrote in a comment here on DF that after the milonga, I would put on my headphones at home and dance in socks in the hallway to my favorite tango pieces. And those of course weren't tango steps.

 

[itwillhappen]

I'd say: no, it doesn't. But that depends how far you extend 'sexuality'. And then there's perception and reality.

There are at least a medical, a therapeutic, and a colloquial context.
What are the reasons, that one prefers to dance with the opposite sex, and that an uneasy feeling while dancing can be considered a very good indicator of the exclusion of further intimacy. Sensitivity to criticism is also very similar.

Don't mistake tango for real life!

A tanda with a stranger may be a artificial relationship, but for life partners who dance together, tango is absolutely "real life." If such a couple needs a couples therapist, the therapist will show keen interest in the topic and not dismiss it as "not real life."

For individuals with a "tango lifestyle," one would have to look closely to see whether (beyond necessary basic needs) tango is real and everything else is predominantly virtual or or irrelevant.

 

[opendoor]

Instead of repying Brummbär, I would have expected an response to my comment. Are you, by chance, holding a grudge against me, itwillhappen? Do you have time in January? I would cook something healthy!

 

[Brummbaer]

I would have expected an response to my comment.

It's disappearing too far down the rabbit hole of unreality.

For individuals with a "tango lifestyle," one would have to look closely to see whether (beyond necessary basic needs) tango is real and everything else is predominantly virtual or or irrelevant.

One might also question what's real life. Red pill or blue pill?

 

[itwillhappen]

Instead of repying Brummbär, I would have expected an response to my comment. Are you, by chance, holding a grudge against me, itwillhappen? Do you have time in January? I would cook something healthy!

Hey @opendoor, no, I don't have any grudge. I really appreciate your often unconventional posts. And I'll get in touch if I'm ever near Hamburg. Actually, I read the first post from @Brummbaer, replied, and then used the last light of day to saw some more wood in the garden.

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. Neither with random followers nor with my girlfriend does the "abrazo" have anything to do with sexuality. There's no room for eroticism on the dance floor; the focus is on body control, floorcraft, and musicality.

Remember, dance evolved from a mating ritual.

On the contrary, I find the pressure from others is even stronger in the case of a life partner. I can hear them whisper: "Are they still dancing harmoniously?", "Oh, they're still dancing very elegantly!" etc.

That's how it is. One way to deal with it is to dance harmoniously together.

I think you've completely misunderstood my point. When you dance tango as long as I have, two things happen. Either you reach your technical limits and lose interest in tango. Or you could take on a more difficult project in dance.

Other developments are possible for other people, or why not?

Tango allowed me to delve deeply and intensely into dance. And that's why I became interested in modern dance. Unfortunately, that decision came too late. But even today, whenever possible, I enjoy performing solo on stage. Social partner dancing never allows for complete immersion in the music. Sometimes your own body limits you, sometimes the body of your follower limits you, and sometimes it's the ronda and its rules. That's why I seem to recall that I once wrote in a comment here on DF that after the milonga, I would put on my headphones at home and dance in socks in the hallway to my favorite tango pieces. And those of course weren't tango steps.

You're talking about your motives for this attitude, I was talking about how it might be received by partners, this isn't going to get us anywhere.
If I ever prefer to dance alone, or if my partner ever prefers to dance alone, then I'll see that as an early warning sign for our relationship.