Where's the BEEF?? or is it LEAD??
- Thread starter Mario7
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Mario7
Member
First of all, I'm not saying that I had an experience with a 'bad' teacher, not at all....I thought that the classes were a very challenging physical experience and the teachers worked hard. What I am saying is that which you ask "were do you get off?" Well, I got off after 30 classes and my observations of the students who took 1 year's worth of classes.:doh: That yes the Nuevo 'Lead' is a myth and studying Nuevo will destroy a beginner's (2yrs dancer) close embrace dancing. Nuevo students are NOT taught C.E. first, at least not to any extent that I would call proficient...and that is 'any' extent...basic 8 and on to complex giros...oh and all done in open hold, too. ...barf. Hey, if someone takes offense at my displeasure with this style, sorry but that's how I feel about it...it's a different dance.
I put it out here because I believe that what I posted is true. However, I will keep an open mind thru this thread, at least. If I change my mind, I'll let you know. Or, should I just keep my mouth shut maybe??
Is that what you mean?
Peaches
Well-Known Member
No, I don't mean keep your mouth shut. And I don't mean you have to change your mind about the inferiority of nuevo versus close embrace apilado. I mean that you should try to gain some understanding and perspective.First off, I'm not saying that I had an experience with a 'bad' teacher, not at all....I thought that the classes were a challenging dance experience and the teachers worked hard. What I am saying is that which you ask "were do you get off?" Well, I got off after 30 classes and my observations of the students who took 1 year's worth of classes.:doh:
I put it out here because I believe that what I posted is true. However, I will keep an open mind thru this thread, at least. If I change my mind, I'll let you know. Or, should I just keep my mouth shut maybe??
You don't have much to go on. One series of 30 group classes. Dancing with dancers with one year of experience. Well, if they've had one year of nothing but group classes, perhaps not that surprising. You talked about having to learn complex sequences, but you mentioned little to nothing abut the technique. OK, so there was a sequence. So what? Was it actually a "step monster" class, or was the sequence used as a foundation for teaching? Big difference.
And I also mean...you are completely and utterly wrong when you say that nuevo is about signals instead of leading. If that is what you are thinking...you.are.wrong. End of story. There is not much else to discuss. That shows, more than anything else, that you do NOT have any understanding of what nuevo is and is not. I may also say something about your local scene, or the teachers you've encountered, but it definitely says that you don't understand the style. It is not about signals and choreo any more than apilado is about signals and choreo. It's about leading and following, and learning to lead and follow. Period.
ETA: As regards nuevo "destroying" a beginner ("<2 years") dancer...I call shennanigans. Absolutely, unequivocally, not true. Bad learning, bad teaching, and bad dancing will screw up anyone. It's not the style that is to blame. There can be some issues during the process of integrating new information into old, and trying to make the body learn to adjust, and sorting out what technique belongs in what style...but the same can be said of the learning process even if it's all in one style. Why else do you have the plateau/breakthrough/crash and burn/rebound better cycle?
Now, granted, if there isn't a competent teacher involved, anything can screw up anyone's dancing. I'm assuming, for the sake of argument, that we're talking about good, competent instruction.
Mario7
Member
After learning from what is said here, I will watch more..sure professional show couples know the signals sooooo well that it works...I've just never seen normal dancers looking very good...like people who have NOT danced together every other day for several months or more.
..and sure, there's technique involved...Lot's of it!...making it THE perfect vehicle for teachers...endless classes and the students some of them never going to a milonga...I think that the classes and the style are in direct competition with the social dance (Milonga) and is a question of; Business verses Dancing. OK, I believe this and I wrote it all down....as I've said, my mind is not closed..I am listening and looking..but I see what I see and that's my two cents.
eace:
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Well, if that's the attitude you're bringing to the "discussion," I'm done. You're not interested in opening your mind and admitting the possibility of anything you haven't already decided upon, with no information besides your biases. That's not a discussion, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain. Again.After learning from what is said here, I will watch more..sure professional show couples know the signals sooooo well that it works...I've just never seen normal dancers looking very good...like people who have NOT danced together every other day for several months or more.
..and sure, there's technique involved...Lot's of it!...making it THE perfect vehicle for teachers...endless classes and the students some of them never going to a milonga...I think that the classes and the style are in direct competition with the social dance (Milonga) and is a question of; Business verses Dancing. OK, I believe this and I wrote it all down....as I've said, my mind is not closed..I am listening and looking..but I see what I see and that's my two cents.
Just an observation (as I have no horse in this race). In the past, we'd argue about what tango is and is not. Now we have meandered into a debate about what nuevo is and is not.
Is it possible that both questions could have more than one answer, and maybe most of us have simply not experienced all the possibilities?
Is it possible that both questions could have more than one answer, and maybe most of us have simply not experienced all the possibilities?
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Well, of course they have more than one answer--it depends on who is doing the answering! 
As a point of reference, I think of nuevo as being a modern style of tango dancing (regardless of venue or purpose--be it social or performance, milonga or on stage), which has as its hallmarks alternate embraces (side to side, front to back, at right angles, etc.), play with axes (colgadas, volcadas, etc.), and a tendency of the dancers to arrive ON the beat instead of ever-so-slightly before it. I find it is often done to electronic or alternative music, but not necessarily; it is often big, but not necessarily; and it can be particularly well suited to stationary movements (but travels just as well).
Like the Supreme Court famously said, "I know it when I see it."
As a point of reference, I think of nuevo as being a modern style of tango dancing (regardless of venue or purpose--be it social or performance, milonga or on stage), which has as its hallmarks alternate embraces (side to side, front to back, at right angles, etc.), play with axes (colgadas, volcadas, etc.), and a tendency of the dancers to arrive ON the beat instead of ever-so-slightly before it. I find it is often done to electronic or alternative music, but not necessarily; it is often big, but not necessarily; and it can be particularly well suited to stationary movements (but travels just as well).
Like the Supreme Court famously said, "I know it when I see it."
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Spookily enough I've just been involved in exactly this discussion on another forum. Small world.
But I'll repeat what I said there - to me, nuevo dancing is based around the pivot, and traditional dancing is based around the walk.
That's pretty much it. There are other considerations like the embrace and the music, but I think the pivot vs. walk thing is where I'd place the line. Or the circle.
Heh. If he does, then I think it's only fair that you tell us how to do open embrace volcadas.
Peaches
Well-Known Member
Could you elaborate on this?
Seriously? I did these all the time when I was taking lessons. No different than a volcada, except it's in open embrace. Put the two together, just like you'd think. Et voila! (Or is there a joke around here that I missed?)Heh. If he does, then I think it's only fair that you tell us how to do open embrace volcadas.
mkjohnson
Member
Mario - I will agree that Nuevo frequently confounds me and feels fundamentally different to me than traditional CE and apilado embrace tango. Not unpleasant - just different. Enjoyable for different reasons than what I look to tango for, generally. However, one of the best followers I know in our community dances both styles beautifully. Her teachers live and teach (and dance in milongas) in Buenos Aires. Learning nuevo did not undo her close embrace following skills. She's one of the most sought after followers at milongas by both close and open embrace leaders.
Of the times that I have danced with highly competent nuevo dancers (they do exist), every single movement was led. There was frequently more time, however, allowed for me to complete a movement - allowing for more creative expression had I any to offer. The only time a leader has commented or suggested anything about visual cues or signals - it was actually from a ballroom dancer, not a nuevo dancer.
More than my two cents...
I would disagree with one thing mentioned above that it is the follower's job to be aware of her surroundings and space before following a step/movement too big. While that's completely true - however, it is the leader that can see behind us. Unfortunately, I never developed the eyes in the back of my head that my mother seemed to have been blessed with.
Of the times that I have danced with highly competent nuevo dancers (they do exist), every single movement was led. There was frequently more time, however, allowed for me to complete a movement - allowing for more creative expression had I any to offer. The only time a leader has commented or suggested anything about visual cues or signals - it was actually from a ballroom dancer, not a nuevo dancer.
More than my two cents...
I would disagree with one thing mentioned above that it is the follower's job to be aware of her surroundings and space before following a step/movement too big. While that's completely true - however, it is the leader that can see behind us. Unfortunately, I never developed the eyes in the back of my head that my mother seemed to have been blessed with.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Sure, but the question asked for a simple definition.
Possibly. Colgadas are impossible in close embrace; unless you can explain how a couple can be leaning away from each other and still have chest-to-chest contact. Similarly, volcadas don't work in open, at least in as much as I understand them.
tangonuevo
New Member
In a typical colgada, the partners lean away from each other and thus do not have upper body contact. BUT, I can easily have my partner lean away from me while we are in close embrace, i.e. her weight is largely supported by my arms, and if I were to let go, she would hit the floor. What would you call that?????
Open volcadas work very well and I _routinely_ dance those. i.e. if my partner and I relaxed our frame, she would fall perhaps a foot, perhaps two, and then land on me chest to chest. What would you call that?
tangonuevo
New Member
Further clarification - execute a typical colgada. Feet are (essentially) touching and upper bodies are well away. Then, for the purpose of this exercise, imagine that the follower's body position and the leader's body position remain exactly as you see them, _but_ the feet are simply repositioned - say slid across the floor - so that the upper bodies are touching but the feet are away on the opposite sides. This is a ?????
Dave Bailey
Active Member
As requested:
Main definition:
Nuevo tango, to me, is fundamentally a non-progressive dance. You and your partner are moving around in a (stationary) circle. Most of the (few) nuevo movements I know implicitly recognise that assumption.
Traditional tango, to me, is fundamentally a progressive dance. The leader steps forward, the follower steps back. Everything else is decoration. It's quite conceivable that you could have a lovely traditional tango, walking a mile along in a straight line.
It's possible to dance progressive nuevo tango, but it feels strange. I'm not sure it's possible to dance non-progressive traditional tango.
I also suspect this is one reason why nuevo and trad dancing in the same milonga causes friction. Nuevo dancers naturally want to pivot, trad dancers naturally want to walk. The two aims are difficult to reconcile.
Sub-definition 1: Musicality
I'd also say that achieving good levels of musicality in nuevo seems to me to be harder than in traditional.
This may be because the traditional components can be chopped into far smaller (quicker) components than the nuevo components; it's not a good idea to rush a volcada, for example, but it's easier to change tempo in traditional.
Or it may be because the type of people who do nuevo are more focussed on getting the moves looking good, than on achieving a connection with their partner through the music. Or it may be a reflection of the sequence-based teaching many nuevo teachers seem to love.
Or it may be a combination of factors.
On the music front, I'd also say that nuevo feels better to non-traditional music; some of the movements can't really be rushed, and so if you try dancing nuevo to traditional music, it's bound to look less musical.
Sub-definition 2: Embrace
I'd say that nuevo does not mandate an open embrace, but that it often looks and feels better in open; you have more space to play with, you get more leverage for the fun stuff, and it looks more dramatic.
Conversely, I'd say that traditional does not mandate a close embrace, but that it feels and looks better in close; it's easier to establish a connection, and to move "as one", when you're in close.
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Whew...
Don't say I didn't warn you...
Main definition:
Nuevo tango, to me, is fundamentally a non-progressive dance. You and your partner are moving around in a (stationary) circle. Most of the (few) nuevo movements I know implicitly recognise that assumption.
Traditional tango, to me, is fundamentally a progressive dance. The leader steps forward, the follower steps back. Everything else is decoration. It's quite conceivable that you could have a lovely traditional tango, walking a mile along in a straight line.
It's possible to dance progressive nuevo tango, but it feels strange. I'm not sure it's possible to dance non-progressive traditional tango.
I also suspect this is one reason why nuevo and trad dancing in the same milonga causes friction. Nuevo dancers naturally want to pivot, trad dancers naturally want to walk. The two aims are difficult to reconcile.
Sub-definition 1: Musicality
I'd also say that achieving good levels of musicality in nuevo seems to me to be harder than in traditional.
This may be because the traditional components can be chopped into far smaller (quicker) components than the nuevo components; it's not a good idea to rush a volcada, for example, but it's easier to change tempo in traditional.
Or it may be because the type of people who do nuevo are more focussed on getting the moves looking good, than on achieving a connection with their partner through the music. Or it may be a reflection of the sequence-based teaching many nuevo teachers seem to love.
Or it may be a combination of factors.
On the music front, I'd also say that nuevo feels better to non-traditional music; some of the movements can't really be rushed, and so if you try dancing nuevo to traditional music, it's bound to look less musical.
Sub-definition 2: Embrace
I'd say that nuevo does not mandate an open embrace, but that it often looks and feels better in open; you have more space to play with, you get more leverage for the fun stuff, and it looks more dramatic.
Conversely, I'd say that traditional does not mandate a close embrace, but that it feels and looks better in close; it's easier to establish a connection, and to move "as one", when you're in close.
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Whew...
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I dunno what it is.
But from your description, it's not a close embrace, it's just that the chests are in proximity.