Where's the BEEF?? or is it LEAD??

[tangonuevo]

As requested:

Don't say I didn't warn you...

Main definition:
Nuevo tango, to me, is fundamentally a non-progressive dance. ....

I (an those I dance with) always dance "neuvo" progressively, i.e. LOD, exactly as rapidly/slowly as the close embrace dancers around us. It is most definitely not a circular/stationary dance and more than CE is. An ocho cortado does not progress, a puente does not progress, but my colgada does, my volcada does, etc. Perhaps I could argue that CE is the stationary dance and nuevo is the moving dance?? Moreover, I dance "nuevo" 90% of the time in close embrace. Only for a widely separated colgada or soltada or something similar do I prefer to open the embrace.

 

[tangonuevo]

... it's not a close embrace, it's just that the chests are in proximity.

What is your definition of close embrace? Does it necessitate leaning on your partner??

 

[Dave Bailey]

I (an those I dance with) always dance "neuvo" progressively, i.e. LOD, exactly as rapidly/slowly as the close embrace dancers around us. It is most definitely not a circular/stationary dance and more than CE is. An ocho cortado does not progress, a puente does not progress, but my colgada does, my volcada does, etc. Perhaps I could argue that CE is the stationary dance and nuevo is the moving dance?? Moreover, I dance "nuevo" 90% of the time in close embrace. Only for a widely separated colgada or soltada or something similar do I prefer to open the embrace.

I wonder though - if you were dancing pure nuevo, in an empty studio, would you dance exactly LOD?

Also, sorry, but saying "I don't do that, therefore your definition is wrong" is not much of an argument, you know?

• Giros are non-progressive.
• Ochos are non-progressive.
• Colgadas are non-progressive, unless you can magically lean, stand still, and walk.
• Soltadas are non-progressive.
• Sacadas are non-progressive.
• Sentadas are non-progressive.
• Ganchos are non-progressive.
• Barridas are ... etc.

There's a common element here, what could it be?

(As for ocho cortados - actually I'm not sure they're nuevo. To me, they're a good way to get round corners...)

 

[Dave Bailey]

What is your definition of close embrace? Does it necessitate leaning on your partner??

I think some amount of contact is involved, yes.

If you tie a couple together with rope, that doesn't put them in close embrace, it just puts them close together.

 

[Dave Bailey]

By the way:

I (an those I dance with) always dance "neuvo" progressively, i.e. LOD, exactly as rapidly/slowly as the close embrace dancers around us.

In case of any confusion, I think this is exactly the right thing to do, in the context of a LOD atmosphere.

I'm absolutely not advocating that nuevo dancers suddenly stop and gyrate like crazy in a milonga. You should always dance to fit in with the atmosphere of the milonga.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Oh, and whilst I'm here:

Yeah right
{snip rant}

Mario, we've all experienced incompetent teachers.

(It's quite possible my students are doing so right now, in fact)

That doesn't mean you can make a simplistic blanket assertion that all nuevo teaching and dancing is rubbish.

I'd be just as wrong to state that all people called Mario make simplistic assertions.

 

[dchester]

Heh. If he does, then I think it's only fair that you tell us how to do open embrace volcadas.

You have to use your arms to support her.

 

[Peaches]

You have to use your arms to support her.

Yup. To me it feels kind of like doing a push-up against a wall or some such. Volcada, in open...use arms for support. Done and done.

 

[tangonuevo]

I wonder though - if you were dancing pure nuevo, in an empty studio, would you dance exactly LOD?

Also, sorry, but saying "I don't do that, therefore your definition is wrong" is not much of an argument, you know?

• Giros are non-progressive.
• Ochos are non-progressive.
• Colgadas are non-progressive, unless you can magically lean, stand still, and walk.
• Soltadas are non-progressive.
• Sacadas are non-progressive.
• Sentadas are non-progressive.
• Ganchos are non-progressive.
• Barridas are ... etc.

There's a common element here, what could it be?

(As for ocho cortados - actually I'm not sure they're nuevo. To me, they're a good way to get round corners...)

First, I intended OC and puente's as examples of non-progressive CE steps. And don't CE dancers make ochos work lod?? Why do you say they are non-progressive? And don't CE dancers dance giros?? A lot (!) when the floor is moving slowly?

Secondly, I'm confused. Every one of those can be danced with forward motion. Let's pick on a colgada. I lead a back ocho and step forward into my partner, pivot 180 in one beat and step out backwards lod That is the same time required to complete a crusada with full-beat timing (instead of double time) for the follower.

Isn't that still progressive? I guess that I don't remotely see CE as "progressive" and "nuevo" as "non-progressive" (circular). I mean not at all!

The differences I see have to do entirely with technique, not floorcraft or other such externals.

 

[Peaches]

I wonder though - if you were dancing pure nuevo, in an empty studio, would you dance exactly LOD?

By the same token, if a traditional dancer was in the same scenario, would they? It doesn't happen all that much in exhbitions, regardless of traditional-ness.

Also, sorry, but saying "I don't do that, therefore your definition is wrong" is not much of an argument, you know?

• Giros are non-progressive.
• Ochos are non-progressive.
• Colgadas are non-progressive, unless you can magically lean, stand still, and walk.
• Soltadas are non-progressive.
• Sacadas are non-progressive.
• Sentadas are non-progressive.
• Ganchos are non-progressive.
• Barridas are ... etc.

There's a common element here, what could it be?

(As for ocho cortados - actually I'm not sure they're nuevo. To me, they're a good way to get round corners...)

Well, I wouldn't consider ocho cortads nuevo. Nor would I consider giros nuevo, or ochos, or ganchos, or barridas. That said...

Giros--I wouldn't consider the nuevo. No, they're not progressive, but one thing that even the most traditional dancer has to be able to do in a milonga is dance on the spot...giros are one way of doing that. So, traditional is necessarily always progressive. And, giros are particularly well-suited IMO to the feeling of vals, regardless of style.

Ochos--Again, I wouldn't consider them nuevo. There are, however, a myriad of different ways of doing them. And, yes, plenty of them can be progressive. At one end of the spectrum, there are "milonguero ochos," also sometimes called straight-legged, non-dissociated, or crossed back ochos. Those travel particularly well. OTOH, there are overturned ochos which progress quite nicely.

Colgadas--The big swinging colgadas are not progressive, no. But I would argue that a single-axis turn is a variation on it. Not progressive, but also not very stationary, in the sense that it happens very quickly and then you can resume moving along. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJS7UYeBbE at 2:00. Again, as I said earlier, even the most traditional dancer has to know how to dance on the spot. A CE colgada fits that bill. As for making it progressive, it can be done. See the same video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJS7UYeBbE), at 2:22.

Soltadas--Don't know what these are, or at least don't know the terminology.

Sacadas--These can be done with an otherwise normal forward walk. Of course they are progressive. Likewise, they can be done with most giros. They are an integral part of...whatchacallits..."chain" in english...ah, cadenas. Very progressive.

Sentadas--Ditto. Don't know what they are/the terminology.

Ganchos--I never would have said these were nuevo. However, they can be thrown in as an embellishment plenty of places (provided the dancers are sufficiently skilled, which I amnot), plenty of which are progressive.

Barridas--Again, not nuevo.

As you said, just because one person does them does not invalidate another's definition of what nuevo is or is not. However, saying that, as a nuevo dancer, those elements are routinely incorporated...seems like that does help define what nuevo is and is not.

 

[tangonuevo]

...
Well, I wouldn't consider ocho cortads nuevo. Nor would I consider giros nuevo, or ochos, or ganchos, or barridas. That said...

Thank you.

OTOH, there are overturned ochos which progress quite nicely.

Thank you again. And they can be done as forward ochos with lead facing LOD or back ochos with lead's back to the LOD.

Soltadas--Don't know what these are, or at least don't know the terminology.

Think underarm turn as an example. Certainly can progress.

Sentadas--Ditto. Don't know what they are/the terminology.

The follow "jumps" into a seated position on the lead. Personally, I do lump those into stage tango, never lead them 'cause I think they look silly, but you certainly can be progressing through the sentada.

However, saying that, as a nuevo dancer, those elements are routinely incorporated...seems like that does help define what nuevo is and is not.

No argument. But I still think that the primary differences are in technique, not moves/steps. For example, I think of the "inertia" based back boleo I described before as "nuevo", but the conventional, momentum based, back boleo as not "nuevo". Difference to me is significant differences in follower's technique (as well as leaders).

 

[Subliminal]

I think some amount of contact is involved, yes.

If you tie a couple together with rope, that doesn't put them in close embrace, it just puts them close together.

Unless you're weight-sharing, why does it matter? I think just about every advanced salon dancer I've seen slides at least a little in CE to pull off certain moves. You can do any move really in CE as long as you're open to the idea that you don't need to be completely squared with your partner all the time. I'd assume the same is true for nuevo.

 

[Lui]

I’m not an expert on Nuevo, merely an observer, as I dance very little Nuevo myself. Therefore, this are just some of my impressions I got from watching Nuevo dancers.

It’s so very difficult to define a specific tango style by it’s apearence, because their is no normed syllabus - which is a good thing in my opinion. It’s easier to draw a line if you look at the that very parameter involved into it’s creation. Look at the volcada for example. As a former stage figure it has been around quite some time. Give the lady’s left leg som rotation energy, maybe by a sacada, tilt her as soon as it is behind her body, so that it locks into a back cross, strike a dramatic pose or draw her along stage if necessary - voila! The crowd is watching. Lay audience love that pose. Danced on the street it stops the spectators even beeing far from an difficult or extravagant step. Executed with the right dynamics its full of energy, tension and drama. The people are curios what will happen next. You have just danced a stage volcada.

It’s possible to dance the same step even in close embrace, but you don’t want to stop the flow on the dance floor, you don’t want to spend more as two beats on it and you don’t step back more than half a foots length. Thus, there is no pose, no dragging and just as little energy as necessary to smoothly move ladies the leg. Tilt, put her back and go.You have just danced a Salon volcada.

Finally somebody played with the figure and wondered what will happen when you don’t lock the ladies leg, but let it swing with the motion. So the Nuevo volcada was born. I thing the playing with pendulum motions (volcada, colgada, boleos ...) is one important aspect of Nuevo. From this resulted that Nuevo is often danced more static, and a little bit slower. Traditional tango often employs a frequent change of speed and body tension and relaxation, creating some tention in the atmosphere of dance as well – for example by pronouncing rather the arriving/standing on the foot/beat than the movement). Nuevo, on the other side, has sometimes even dream like movements, slow, uniform and rather relaxed. I assume that the play with the physics/ the pendulum motion are more enjoyable that way. Of course you don’t need to dance the Nuevo combinations that way. I for example sometimes dance a Nuevo volcada, but use the traditional timing and styling. From the outside it doesn’t look very Nuevo at all and I wouldn't call it Nuevo.

Nuevo is a dance of the Youth, or those who want to be counted as such. Ok, a boleo recto or linear bolero don’t need to be high but it’s often danced high. Many dancer give those move some acrobatic qualities, that can’t be easily don’t by a senior couple. Sometimes, that can’t be easily done by a younger couple as well, and that’s why Nuevo occasionally looks very awkward. When I see young German couples dance the Nuevo style I frequently wonder what their knees and backs will feel in 20 years. Nevertheless for many people Nuevo is the fresh alternative to the the traditional tango image: men in suits, Ladies in high dagged evening gowns, ... well you know the cliche.

Finally it is a harbor for those people who like the tango dance somehow, but do not like the traditional tango music.

 

[Mr Walker]

Subliminal's observations are spot on..in salon style the embrace slides and this allows both dancers more possibilities..Also the fact that our chest are connected in this style is because we desire it. i wish to feel her and she wishes to feel me.. She is responsible for her own axis/balance...

 

[bordertangoman]

After learning from what is said here, I will watch more..sure professional show couples know the signals sooooo well that it works...I've just never seen normal dancers looking very good...like people who have NOT danced together every other day for several months or more.
..and sure, there's technique involved...Lot's of it!...making it THE perfect vehicle for teachers...endless classes and the students some of them never going to a milonga...I think that the classes and the style are in direct competition with the social dance (Milonga) and is a question of; Business verses Dancing. OK, I believe this and I wrote it all down....as I've said, my mind is not closed..I am listening and looking..but I see what I see and that's my two cents.eace:

I dont agree with this but I shall be more specific; I learnt a lot of different tango things from different teachers. I can count at least 24 different teachers that I remember, but probably more, but nobody except Homer was selling his stuff as Nuevo and even he doesnt make the distinction. I've seen him dance at Milongas and with Christina. he can do the same kind of things with other dancers depending more on their skill and experience. I also think there's a lot of dancers out there who just dont get out and dance enough socially they end up in small backwaters with a small group and dont pick up the nuances of tango connection because they are isolated. I danced with someone about six months ago who had become worse because she mainly dances with her partner and his ability is limited.

There is probably an element of truth in the selling thing, but I think its more driven by what people see. In jive circles they like the fancy moves like leans and lifts and lunges that I would never ever dance at a milonga; so you have to take account of what people are looking for as much as what is being offered.

I like the way Homer and Christina dance because it flows into and out of close embrace.
I have been described as nuevo but no way am I going to stay inside someone-elses box.
Nuevo has beautiful flowing movements but can only be danced by people who have a strong connection, excellent balance and the ability to be relaxed in the hips and knee.
It takes time but these are exactly the same qualities I would expect in a close embrace dancer so what's the difference?