Where's the BEEF?? or is it LEAD??

[Mario7]

I think one difficulty is that the skill level required to dance nuevo in a flowing and highly connected manner is very high.

Well, high, low ...how about different? Ricardo Vidort used to say that his students will only need a total of 8 classes before they are on their own and capable of the dance. (Tango)...we must be talking about different dances don't you think? ...24 teachers? sheesh!

 

[Peaches]

Well, high, low ...how about different? Ricardo Vidort used to say that his students will only need a total of 8 classes before they are on their own and capable of the dance. (Tango)...we must be talking about different dances don't you think? ...24 teachers? sheesh!

I was told that I danced on Day 2 (or 3?) when I started to learn. Of course my technique was crap, but what he meant is that I could follow basic things and I felt the music. After 8 classes I could see it being enough to get out there and move around the floor and know enough basic stuff to put together a dance.

24 teachers? Not so much if you count festivals and workshops, and possibly taking a one-off class from visiting teachers. By that count, I had three in my first week.

It's easy to pull quotes out and lose the context...

 

[tangonuevo]

Well, high, low ...how about different? Ricardo Vidort used to say that his students will only need a total of 8 classes before they are on their own and capable of the dance. (Tango)

You've had 8 classes and are still working on ocho cortado. And I don't say that you are unusual. There is a lot about tango that is hard. I know that I had far more than 8 close embrace classes (privates) from a superb dancer and teacher, and well over 500 hours, perhaps as many as 1000 hours (lets see, 3 hours per night, 4 nights per week for two years = A LOT) on the dance floor before I began to feel good about my dance. And that was just close embrace!

In my opinion, to be a good "nuevo" dancer, one must first have sufficient mastery over close embrace that in most circles you would be considered an excellent close embrace lead. Say 1000 hours on the floor.

Then one must add to that all of the additional technique to make the "nuevo" leads work, to make them clear and enjoyable - a LOT more hours of classes/privates and a LOT of personal struggle.

Then one must have danced it enough to move beyond technique and be able to execute the dance without thinking about each step, or each move, or whatever. Say again, 1000 hours.

Then, and only then, can one begin to fit things into the music in a smooth, highly connected and flowing way.

Yes. A very high skill level. If you are watching unskilled dancers and complaining about them, well, ... what do you expect??

 

[Dave Bailey]

I hate to see Tango communities morphing over into nuevo.

Why?

Surely a community has the right to define the direction it goes in?

In fact, surely we all have that right?

 

[Peaches]

Huh. Just thinking. (I'm snowed in...I've got a lot of time and boredom on my hands.) One of the most amazing nuevo leads I ran across had comparatively little AT experience (2-3 years?). But! But, he had been a serious ice dancer since he was a little kid. I've got to say, he was amazing. So completely and utterly in control of his own balance and axis, was amazingly good at leading whatever he wanted to lead without ever disturbing my axis or balance, a seemingly very good understanding of just what it took to make happen what he wanted to happen, and very very smooth. Incredible.

Unusually, his close embrace completely sucked.

Yes, I realize this is totally off topic. I'm going insane. (See above reference to snowed in.)

 

[Dave Bailey]

But most of the people I come across in Nuevo, or whatever you want to call it, aren't like that. Too much floor/foot watching, concentration on the moves rather than their partner and the music. In Tango it's each and everyone of us to their own.

Nor do most have any idea of their relationship to, and co-existence with, the rest of the people on the floor . . . . . . . . which brings us back to Mario's original post I guess.

Actually, no.

You're observing what happens a lot - and FWIW I agree with you. A lot of nuevo dancing in milongas is massively disconnected and unmusical. Most of it, possibly.

But Mario is ranting that nuevo is Intrinsically Evil - he's making a blanket assertion.

They're very different positions.

 

[Dave Bailey]

I think one difficulty is that the skill level required to dance nuevo in a flowing and highly connected manner is very high.

I'd very much agree with this. The skills required to dance nuevo well are as much as those required to dance trad well in my view.

Didn't we have a thread about this a while back?

 

[Peaches]

Yup. Bad dancing is bad dancing, regardless of style. (And OMG, it happens in Salon and milonguero, too. OMG, does it happen.)

 

[Peaches]

I'd very much agree with this. The skills required to dance nuevo well are as much as those required to dance trad well in my view.

Didn't we have a thread about this a while back?

Probably. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Personally, I don't see a huge technique difference between the two styles. I still think the fundamentals are the same. (OK, there's a fundamental break between weight sharing in apilado and being completely on your own axis in nuevo.)

I wonder if it's a difference between the leader's role versus the follower's. As in, there is a significant technique difference between nuevo technique versus milonguero/salon technique for the men, but perhaps not so much for the women?

I'm just throwing out ideas at this point.

 

[Dave Bailey]

In my opinion, to be a good "nuevo" dancer, one must first have sufficient mastery over close embrace that in most circles you would be considered an excellent close embrace lead. Say 1000 hours on the floor.

Blimey, I've got about 800 hours to go I reckon

But I think you're right in principle. I'm going to start (re-)learning nuevo this year, and I only feel comfortable doing that now that I'm relatively relaxed in close.

 

[tangonuevo]

Blimey, I've got about 800 hours to go I reckon

So perhaps I exaggerate. Or I'm just slow. But I do know that I danced for years, a lot of hours per week (see my arithmetic), to feel really comfortable with a lot of things that I now do without any thought for the "step", but only thought for the music, the floor and my partner.

And this was on a base of >10 years of other (non-tango) partner dance! Yeah. I'm slow!

 

[Dave Bailey]

So perhaps I exaggerate. Or I'm just slow. But I do know that I danced for years, a lot of hours per week (see my arithmetic), to feel really comfortable with a lot of things that I now do without any thought for the "step", but only thought for the music, the floor and my partner.

And this was on a base of >10 years of other (non-tango) partner dance! Yeah. I'm slow!

I'm also slow. But I get there in the end.

And as I said, I think you're right about the general principle.

 

[Peaches]

So perhaps I exaggerate. Or I'm just slow. But I do know that I danced for years, a lot of hours per week (see my arithmetic), to feel really comfortable with a lot of things that I now do without any thought for the "step", but only thought for the music, the floor and my partner.

And this was on a base of >10 years of other (non-tango) partner dance! Yeah. I'm slow!

Nah, you just had to overcome all of those years of non-AT experience! LOL.

 

[chanchan]

there's a fundamental break between weight sharing in apilado and being completely on your own axis in nuevo.)

I thought the main, and maybe the only, technical difference between nuevo and salon is that in nuevo you are not necessarily on your own axis.

 

[Peaches]

I thought the main, and maybe the only, technical difference between nuevo and salon is that in nuevo you are not necessarily on your own axis.

Perhaps I misspoke earlier. (If it is an earlier post of mine to which you are referring.) Apologies...there has been a lot of vodka involved with this past weekend/week.

Apilado, of course, involves dancing with weight sharing. IMO this is a fundamental difference between that style and either Salon or Nuevo.

With nuevo, being danced mostly/stereotypically in open embrace, the partners are on their own axis. However, one of the hallmarks of nuevo IMO, is the idea of partners playing with each others' axes. Taking off and restoring, counterbalancing, etc.

Is that more clear? (There's still vodka involved, so if it's not...I'm not terribly surprised.)