Which UK/European festivals/marathons/encuentros would you recommend?

[pianistamediano]

My expectations is that at festivals the larger number probably means more number of good dancers. If a % of good dancers is say 10% then that percent of a larger number of attendees should be bigger. Downside is very crowded rondas. I use that as an opportunity to either find good dancers or dance with good ones. Going as a total solo stranger I have also observed that many people are either attending with friends or there are many who know each other from elsewhere (other festivals or cities over the years).

The problem with festivals (and any other event with a sufficient number or beyond a critical mass of attendees) is that, reasonably assuming normally distributed skill and experience, you get a wider variety of dancers. More good dancers? Sure, depending on which event you go to. But I find that the majority of followers at a big festival are not worth dancing with, mostly due to inadequate skill, feeling and compatibility issues. So I too observe and rely on my instincts developed from years of watching dancers on the pista to decide which few followers I want to dance with.

Consider this hypothetical scenario: Three events, one with 150 dancers, another with 350 dancers, and one more with, say, 1000 dancers (which I took from the BTE Facebook page). Suppose that each dancer is assigned a rating of 0 to 10, depending on how perfect a partner they'd be for you. Say you're looking at a 'group' (could be standing close together) of 5 opposite-role dancers. Smaller events tend to be better balanced in terms of roles, but for the sake of simplicity I'll assume that they're the same.

This is then sampling from a finite population without replacement; the corresponding variance of the mean of a sample is then (N - n) / (N - 1) * σ^2 / n, where σ is the population variance, which we assume to be the same for each event, n is the number of dancers in the 'group' we are looking at, and N is the total number of opposite-role dancers at an event, which is just half of the total number of all dancers.

We then get corresponding variances (with multiplier σ^2) 14/74 < 34/174 < 99/499, in ascending order of total number of dancers.

In general, solving the simple inequality of (N_1 - n) / (N_1 - 1) * σ^2 / n > (N_2 - n) / (N_2 - 1) * σ^2 / n, N_1 > N_2 > 1 gives us n > 1, which means that the variance in mean rating of any random sample of dancers at an event is higher with a higher number of participants.

So while the mean rating of the sample is simply expected to be the population mean, and therefore the average rating would be the same regardless of the total number of attendees, cabeceo-ing any one dancer in that sample group is expected to lead to more extreme results.

If we now modify our initial assumptions and now assume that the mean rating of dancers decreases with an increasing number of attendees, which I consider realistic if the smaller event's organisers are actually selective about who they allow to attend, then a random sample of dancers from the smaller event is expected to have a higher mean rating and a lower variability of rating compared to that from the larger event.

Of course, there's always the issue of whether you'll be invited, or if your invitation will be accepted...

 

[itwillhappen]

In general, solving the simple inequality of (N_1 - n) / (N_1 - 1) * σ^2 / n > (N_2 - n) / (N_2 - 1) * σ^2 / n, N_1 > N_2 > 1 gives us n > 1, which means that the variance in mean rating of any random sample of dancers at an event is higher with a higher number of participants.

If you try to explain this to your dance partner during the break between two songs, she will inevitably get the feeling that this event could become difficult.

 

[pianistamediano]

If you try to explain this to your dance partner during the break between two songs, she will inevitably get the feeling that this event could become difficult.

Oh, that's fine, I dance regularly with a few followers with PhDs in maths or maths-adjacent fields.

I simply have to be even more selective and only dance with post-docs.

 

[pianistamediano]

Also, an addendum I just thought of: Finding actually good/compatible dancers in a larger crowd is way more difficult. Plus, you will be competing with other same-role dancers who may very well be better than you in the eyes of the dancer you're trying to dance with. The competition only increases in quantity, and you are more likely to be overlooked or just go unnoticed by that dancer.

Considering that there's only so many tandas in an event, and that the number of tandas tends to be less in a festival (because of performances, classes, etc.) compared to, say, a marathon, assuming they span the same number of days, and have the same number of milongas in a day (afternoon, evening, afterparty), I would be much more inclined to go to a marathon known for having high-level dancers than a festival, unless my friends are going to that festival.

Also, the BTE is a festival. They might call it an encuentro, but they also tag on festival and marathon in its subtitle. There are workshops and performances during the milongas.

 

[Rabbit]

How do you avoid the not so good matches? How does the size of event make it easier or not to avoiding bad matches?

I can't keep track of people if the event is too large and crowded, so I invite primarily based on appearance. Most of the other people there are doing the same thing. That's why it's less accurate.

 

[itwillhappen]

Also, an addendum I just thought of: Finding actually good/compatible dancers in a larger crowd is way more difficult. Plus, you will be competing with other same-role dancers who may very well be better than you in the eyes of the dancer you're trying to dance with. The competition only increases in quantity, and you are more likely to be overlooked or just go unnoticed by that dancer.

I guess the difficulty is not hidden in the numerical undergrowth of probability calculations, but rather that once a certain size is reached, habitual community builders will not feel responsible. Either way, your own activity can contribute practically nothing to general satisfaction.

Ultimately, the satisfaction of attractive frequent dancers and less attractive infrequent dancers cannot be ranked on a scale; both are equally dissatisfied when their expectations are not met. If you see the opportunity, why waste your time and not help one or two handful of "compatible" dancers to have a positive experience?

So at a local milonga I may feel obligated to the community, at a cozy encuentro perhaps to the organizer. But at a festival where I have purchased my ticket more or less anonymously, I also have to pay for travel and overnight accommodation?

 

[pianistamediano]

Ultimately, the satisfaction of attractive frequent dancers and less attractive infrequent dancers cannot be ranked on a scale; both are equally dissatisfied when their expectations are not met.

Yes, but dancers in the former category are less likely to feel dissatisfaction, especially since marathon regulars/frequent marathon-goers are already likely to know compatible dancers and have satisfying tandas with them and with hitherto-unknown compatible dancers.

The idea of community building as a visitor to an event not in your local area is odd to me; a visitor should have no responsibility for that, only the organisers, even if it were an encuentro. But kudos to you for thinking that way.

I agree with you that beyond a certain size, it will take impetus and a concerted group effort to effect an overall improvement in general satisfaction. The mathematics alone dominate.

 

[daisy_r]

Just to clarify, I was getting plenty of invitations to dance, and I was also being aquite choosy and trying to find the people I thought would be good matches. This wasn't a case of not getting invitations, or of only being invited by people who didn't have a good enough level of dance, most of the people that I did end up dancing with had good technique.

What was missing from many of my dances was the connection, the playfulness, the appreciation for the music. Maybe some of those dancers just haven't connected with the dance and the music on that level yet, or maybe they have and we weren't compatible, or maybe the characteristics of the event were having a negative impact.

It was a huge room with a lot of people watching and waiting, and at times the floorcraft was chaotic, and I think this is another downside of the bigger events: you often have a very large dance floor and it's either so sparsely populated that it's hard to understand who is in front of you in the ronda and who is in an entirely different lane, because there is so much open space that people can drift accidentally, or it's very full and not everyone can cope well with dancing small. I also think that on floors that big it's harder to feel like all the couples on the floor are dancing together.

Anyway, my conclusion (for now) is that for me, bigger isn't always better.

I don't regret going though, I danced a lot, I met up with friends, and I feel like I learned some useful lessons.

 

[opendoor]

Magic and star showers cannot be prescribed or planned in advance. Everything is a synergistic process. Happy coincidences play a role, the form of the day and of course the mood every individual currently is in. Also you, daisy , didn't just perceive, you also sent out and influenced the mood of others.

..What was missing.. was the connection, the playfulness, the appreciation for the music....

But that is a harsh accusation and it hits the wrong people. I can only speak for myself, but if I lack playfulness, it's the DJ's fault, not my musicality! I usually get bored at festivals, encuentros and marathons because the music can't motivate me.

 

[TTanguero]

Some of my most memorable tandas have been with people I'd never danced with before.

Same. It's one of the most notable aspects of tango for me – we can have this amazing experience with someone we've never seen before and may never see again.

 

[daisy_r]

Magic and star showers cannot be prescribed or planned in advance. Everything is a synergistic process. Happy coincidences play a role, the form of the day and of course the mood every individual currently is in. Also you, daisy , didn't just perceive, you also sent out and influenced the mood of others.

Yes, of course there are many variables and it's impossible to truly isolate them from one another, and this is all coming from my non-objective viewpoint.

I don't expect to find positive experiences everywhere I go, or every night that I go out, I'm just sharing a personal observation, which is that so far I usually have my best dances at smaller events, and it's making me wonder whether there is something about smaller events or venues that might affect attendees positively, or conversely wether there is something about large events that might have a negative effect.

And yes, it is quite possible that my lukewarm experience was in large part down to me - that I feel more comfortable at smaller events, and therefore my ability to connect to my partners are better in those circumstances. However, if that's true for me, I would think it's also likely to be true for a few other people as well.

 

[pianistamediano]

What was missing from many of my dances was the connection, the playfulness, the appreciation for the music. Maybe some of those dancers just haven't connected with the dance and the music on that level yet, or maybe they have and we weren't compatible, or maybe the characteristics of the event were having a negative impact.

I would say that regardless of the event, unless the floor conditions were really bad enough, dancers like that wouldn't have trouble dancing like that.

I honestly believe that it's because in recent years, probably over the last decade or so, these factors are to blame: the increasing propensity for milonga organisers to have performances in the middle of a milonga, the greater over-idolisation of famous dancers, the prevalence of Mundial styles and their variants thereof, and the spreading sentiment that places the physicality of tango movements over the music, the feeling, and the inherent culture and history.

All these lead to a slow convergence to a more uniform set of styles, and hence reduce the diversity of tango. Moreover, there is more emphasis placed on the steps and movements and tango is treated as a mere physical dance. Communication between leader and follower, listening to each other's bodies, adapting to one's partner — all these are skills that are becoming less important, at least where I'm at.

I see more and more people like that, and I refuse to dance with them, because there is no dance in them. If they have been dancing for some time already and do not want to go beyond the physical aspects of tango, then they are useless and invisible to me.

 

[pianistamediano]

I don't expect to find positive experiences everywhere I go, or every night that I go out, I'm just sharing a personal observation, which is that so far I usually have my best dances at smaller events, and it's making me wonder whether there is something about smaller events or venues that might affect attendees positively, or conversely wether there is something about large events that might have a negative effect.

I do agree with you on afternoon milongas, by the way; I find that the sunlight and relaxed nature brings out the best in people. They are more relaxed, open to new dancers, happy to talk up a storm, and the laser-like focus on dancing I tend to see in evening milongas is happily slackened.

That's why I make an effort to go to every afternoon milonga at marathons, because they are usually great!

 

[Miradamiranda]

How do you avoid the not so good matches? How does the size of event make it easier or not to avoiding bad matches?

For me as I said, I am observing and scanning the floor. Making a mental list. Therefore the size is a bit of non factor

That’s exactly the reason size of the event matters! At really big events where it’s not even necessarily the same people during consecutive days, scanning the room for perceived good matches doesn’t work if you lose them in the crowd. So you end up taking a risk with whoever is within convenient cabeceo lines. And then if fireworks happen serendipitously, you make the effort to find each other again later.

For the mid size events, I’ll take a chance on someone without watching him beforehand, but if it’s not a good match, there are enough other targets, and I can avoid the bad match without it being obvious.

For the small events over several days it’s harder to avoid further tandas without coming across as snooty.

If you are good, people will notice you in small events. In very large, they won’t. But the chances of finding high level dancers to dance with at the big events seem higher - purely an anecdotal non scientific observation based on my personal experience.

 

[Bailango]

The problem with festivals (and any other event with a sufficient number or beyond a critical mass of attendees) is that, reasonably assuming normally distributed skill and experience, you get a wider variety of dancers. More good dancers? Sure, depending on which event you go to. But I find that the majority of followers at a big festival are not worth dancing with, mostly due to inadequate skill, feeling and compatibility issues. So I too observe and rely on my instincts developed from years of watching dancers on the pista to decide which few followers I want to dance with.

Empirically speaking I agree with you. When I observe followers from my local scene who attend the festivals they are generally the average ones. I said followers instead of dancers because followers in tango seem to travel more for both the festivals and BsAs, at least within my local scene. But you can say dancers instead of followers and it still applies.

The larger size events will have not-desirable-dancers-per-good-dancer in greater numbers as well as a percentage of attendees. Or saying it other way if a small event has say 50 opposite role dancers, may be 30 will fall into non-desirable for a good dancer. If it is larger and say there are 200 of opposite role dancers, then 150 might fall into the same non-desirable category.

Say 5 out of 50 are desirable and 15 out of 200, then as an individual I am looking at great tandas with 5 vs 15. For my money spent traveling, 15 wins out every time, all rest being equal.

If the festival organization is skewed to ensure better dancers attend then may be the non-desirable quantity decreases significantly but those with whom you can have great tandas might only increase significantly. Because having great tandas not only requires your partner to be also as good as you (a little more or less) but also that you have a good connection and chemistry. There can be outliers where you can have good connection/chemistry on mutual basis despite significant skill differences.

Of course, there's always the issue of whether you'll be invited, or if your invitation will be accepted...

At smaller milongas and events if you are not the in-crowd or total stranger, it can get difficult. Over a weekend it gets easier to break in if you are either a good dancer or have superior social skills. Smaller events tend to be attended by people that know each other.