Why doesn't International Latin include Salsa? Ditto: American Rhythm

[Johannson]

Why doesn't International Latin include Salsa?
Because salsa is a street / social dance? How is that different from cha cha or samba?

Why doesn't the American Rhythm division include salsa?
It includes mambo. Why mambo instead of salsa?
Because mambo came first and got included before salsa emerged? If salsa is just a new marketing term for the same latin jazz that had existed for 30 years (?), and if mambo is a fusion of latin and jazz, i.e. latin jazz, did mambo truly precede salsa?
Because salsa is too general a term?

Can you imagine Salsa ever being included in any of the standard competition dance divisions? Is there a good reason it should not be included?

 

[opendoor]

Why ...Because salsa is too general a term?

..That !
Hi Johannson, on the pista dance styles evolve much faster than within a regulated organisation. As soon as a free living dance is incorporated into the portfolio of an organization, it is conserved/canned from that moment on. Mambo represents a salsa variant that was danced in the 50s in the US. But at that time already a cuban and a puertorican variant of mambo existed. In the US all these free living mambo variants merged into salsa. But during the cold war the exchange between US and cuban variants was more or less interrupted and the styles developed into different directions (timba, casino). Today all these salsa siblings interbreed again, with the exception of ARh mambo. With other words, its kind of a fossile.

The problem is not restricted to salsa. You also find free living foxtrot variants, tango variants, samba variants, bolero variants, cha cha variants.

 

[Johannson]

As soon as a free living dance is incorporated into the portfolio of an organization, it is conserved/canned from that moment on. [...] kind of a fossile.

Fun answer!
ARh? Ah!: American Rhythm. Starting to get the hang of this. ("Hang of this"? Know the etymology of that phrase?)
Do you know if the syllabus for American Rhythm Mambo has ever changed? Foxtrot? Tango? Samba? Cha cha? etc?

 

[tangotime]

..That !
Hi Johannson, on the pista dance styles evolve much faster than within a regulated organisation. As soon as a free living dance is incorporated into the portfolio of an organization, it is conserved/canned from that moment on. Mambo represents a salsa variant that was danced in the 50s in the US. But at that time already a cuban and a puertorican variant of mambo existed. In the US all these free living mambo variants merged into salsa. But during the cold war the exchange between US and cuban variants was more or less interrupted and the styles developed into different directions (timba, casino). Today all these salsa siblings interbreed again, with the exception of ARh mambo. With other words, its kind of a fossile.

The problem is not restricted to salsa. You also find free living foxtrot variants, tango variants, samba variants, bolero variants, cha cha variants.

And here's the irony ; the major Soc. have produced a salsa division . The practicality of PD is non existent and yet The powers that be ( By and large ) are entrenched in a system that is becoming "dated " I would also venture to say, the majority of the senior circuit know as much about salsa as I know about rocket science !!.

"They" have fought against mambo since it showcased at Blackpool .
here's the main reason ; it is NOT standardised , but that should not prevent it from getting acceptance above and beyond just another dance to sell to the public

 

[tangotime]

Fun answer!
ARh? Ah!: American Rhythm. Starting to get the hang of this. ("Hang of this"? Know the etymology of that phrase?)
Do you know if the syllabus for American Rhythm Mambo has ever changed? Foxtrot? Tango? Samba? Cha cha? etc?

ALL dances have had changes in steps and technique its called "evolution " ..

 

[tangotime]

Can you imagine Salsa ever being included in any of the standard competition dance

divisions? Is there a good reason it should not be included?

NO...

 

[fiesta0618]

Can you imagine Salsa ever being included in any of the standard competition dance divisions? Is there a good reason it should not be included?

I cannot say why Salsa was not included to begin with.

As for why it should not be included now, the heartless-but-practical answer is that the onus is instead on demonstrating why it SHOULD be included. I'm not against it personally, but am playing devil's advocate for the sake of the discussion.

The Ballroom disciplines have almost no interest in being practical in a modern social dance environment, which is where Salsa currently lives. So Salsa's cultural salience is not a compelling argument. Paso Doble, anyone?

It isn't super clear that Salsa would showcase a substantially different set of skills than the existing Latin/Rhythm dances do. If that is the case, what is the benefit of adding a dance that shows "more of the same?"

 

[tangotime]

I cannot say why Salsa was not included to begin with.

.
It isn't super clear that Salsa would showcase a substantially different set of skills than the existing Latin/Rhythm dances do. If that is the case, what is the benefit of adding a dance that shows "more of the same?"

You really believe that Salsa is could not show differences ?.. As to adding, remove PD ( a useless social dance ) .
The problem with BR is primarily this [ The general public's exposure to BR is invariably thru Comps, which creates a false impression about what we really do on a day to day basis.. Social style dance.

Here's a quote from A. Moore...
" After teaching for one year, I suddenly realised that not all students want to be medallists or competitors " ( para phrased ). The day and time I grew up in was dominated by public dance halls UK ) packed to the roof with SOCIAL dancers. With the advent of TV, the inevitable happened... Comps ( this was the late 40/50s

Here is an opposite strategy. In the State's, the A.Murray studio had a weekly dance program on national TV all about social style. It packed the studios .Pity that ship sailed..

 

[fiesta0618]

You really believe that Salsa is could not show differences ?.. As to adding, remove PD ( a useless social dance ) .

I've carefully not said anything about what I personally believe, because I'm mostly interested in seeing a detailed account of the argument in favor of inclusion and don't think that I am well-equipped to make it. It could well be that Salsa shows something different--if so, what is that difference?

The problem with BR is primarily this [ The general public's exposure to BR is invariably thru Comps, which creates a false impression about what we really do on a day to day basis.. Social style dance.

Here's a quote from A. Moore...
" After teaching for one year, I suddenly realised that not all students want to be medallists or competitors " ( para phrased ). The day and time I grew up in was dominated by public dance halls UK ) packed to the roof with SOCIAL dancers. With the advent of TV, the inevitable happened... Comps ( this was the late 40/50s

Here is an opposite strategy. In the State's, the A.Murray studio had a weekly dance program on national TV all about social style. It packed the studios .Pity that ship sailed..

I agree, it is very sad that Ballroom disciplines are competition-focused and ignore social dancing. But this is irrelevant to the question at hand.

The only practical reason to add Salsa to the Ballroom disciplines, as mentioned in the subject and OP, would be to include it in Ballroom competitions. Salsa is already taught in many (most?) of the places where you can learn Ballroom, and there are still more coaches and studios that focus on Salsa and/or other "street" dances exclusively. Adding it to the Ballroom disciplines won't do much of anything for its cultural salience or availability.

That is the context in which I'm talking. For the purposes of this discussion, we accept that the Ballroom disciplines are focused on competitions and performances, and are looking for reasons why Salsa should or should not be included in that picture.

 

[tangotime]

It could well be that Salsa shows something different--if so, what is that difference?

The technique and freedom from partnership for extended periods ( Shines ) .It encourages invention .

And to set the record straight, I grew up when Intern style latin without Cha cha and I heard the same complaints/ comments about inclusion

When I first arrived in the States ( Mambo era ) I was in awe of some of the talent in a dance that I never knew existed. I had to re think my approach to latin music ( particularly ) and style It took me years to readjust.

When the late Bobby Medeiros did an exhib. at B/Pool Peggy Spencer raved about him and the dance. That was in 1963 (? ) .

 

[opendoor]

Salsa already is a competitive dance. Some competitions are BR-born (for instance IDO), others are club-born.

This is an IDO event:


These are independent events:


There is so much competitive salsa on YT, watch!

 

[tangotime]

Salsa already is a competitive dance. Some competitions are BR-born (for instance IDO), others are club-born.

This is an IDO event:
View attachment 3977

These are independent events:
View attachment 3978

There is so much competitive salsa on YT, watch!

ALL of those have been around for yonks.. that alone does not qualify them in the BR world ..

Here is a thought for the powers
that be ( could be a money maker and that alone should get their attention !! ) ;

New Division.. Latin Mix

Salsa ( on 1 and 2 )
Casino
Merengue
Son
Bachata ……………………. Styling. Optional .

Beginners Div.. Salsa, Merengue and Bachata

Open Div......Above plus Casino and Son

 

[opendoor]

...a thought for the ..New Division.. Latin Mix..

I would rather guess free-style show (aka cabaret, aka acrobatics) like on TY ?

 

[rels77]

ALL of those have been around for yonks.. that alone does not qualify them in the BR world ..

Here is a thought for the powers
that be ( could be a money maker and that alone should get their attention !! ) ;

New Division.. Latin Mix

Salsa ( on 1 and 2 )
Casino
Merengue
Son
Bachata ……………………. Styling. Optional .

Beginners Div.. Salsa, Merengue and Bachata

Open Div......Above plus Casino and Son

I mean, a lot of competitions already do a carribean mix or nightclub mix with salsa merengue, and bachata. It’s just not hotly contested.

 

[tangotime]

I would rather guess free-style show (aka cabaret, aka acrobatics) like on TY ?

Enough of the cabaret stuff. My point is to attract the average Joe into something that hr can see is attainable . As I stated, A, Murray with his TV show's always kept things simple hence his success nationally .