Why some women are not asked to dance

[itwillhappen]

Safe space, yes. I feel safe on a milonga in a way i would not feel safe in a club or a bar around 4 am, you know? It is not a place where ive ever been groped or harassed, never had anything stolen from my purse.

Maybe there are some milongas that are less safe somewhere, this is just my experience up to date.

Yes, and I felt even safe in a club or a bar around 4 am when I was young.
Admittedly, here in Germany the physical protection is relatively good, even if the surroundings of some post-industrial cheap real estate can sometimes be frightening. And in the Netherlands, where the churches have no tax privilege, well-suited properties in prime locations have been converted into public centers.
Well, @jantango informed us about their assessment of Buenos Aires:

Sexual misconduct at the milonga

“What we are witnessing at the moment is nothing short of an uprising of women against sexual assault. They are revealing its epidemic frequency in our society and all the ways in which it is…

jantango.wordpress.com

But I think in order to feel really safe it takes more, especially to be free from the fear to get excluded implicitely.

 

[Fanny-K]

Here the teaser of an organizer for trips to BsAs:
*******three tangasms

Geez I do not need anybody to organize my trips. I can and will do that myself.
What I found of interest in the link above is the "tangasm" issue. It could be a good subject matter for another interesting thread. I am new to the forum. Maybe I am too shy.

 

[Cabbit]

Its a thing, but it cannot be bought or sold, really. It either happens, or it doesnt. So, mentioning it in the context of an organized trips is interesting.

 

[itwillhappen]

Let's not forget the social status of being more desirable as a dance partner if you're already favoured by a good dancer (no point in buddying up with a poor dancer).

The pandemic squeezed singles out of the tango, a trauma, and it is unclear how it will restart again. Four of my four private dance partners are looking for or have a buddy dancer.

On female solidarity - it's alive and well and a huge part of the tango social dynamics. Women are generally cooperative and happy to see others improve and dance well. I had my turn as belle of the ball too.

Yes, admittedly, but when it comes to dance partners, they can't be divided into parts, each one is an entity. And in general they also cannot get distributed; they will follow their own agenda. Additionally, solidarity can only exist among women in the milonga, that is about a third of the general interest. We have hurdles in place inside and and at the perimeter, e.g. learning.

@itwillhappen one of the many reasons I would like to see the end of tandas is to give people the freedom to dance a single dance. Tango recordings are looong some stretch to 6mins. So a tanda of 3 songs can go on for nearly 15 minutes. It's worse if there's a live band as you have to stop and clap between songs and go through all the band members and their solos. Imagine if tango songs were only 2mins long? You'd get twice as many tandas into a night. Or if there were no tandas you'd dance one or two songs and then take a break.

That's common here for non-tango-milongas, neolongas and so on, there it makes sense because the music is mostly incoherent and unpredictable.
Personally, I then switched less because I didn't dance exactly one tanda but had to express my appreciation in the number of songs danced. And in the last hour there was often no change at all, if you didn't have a partner in your arms, you could go home.

 

[Rabbit]

Personally, I then switched less because I didn't dance exactly one tanda but had to express my appreciation in the number of songs danced. And in the last hour there was often no change at all, if you didn't have a partner in your arms, you could go home.

Well, if we didn't have tandas perhaps I would dance 10 songs with A, 1 song with B and 1 song with C instead of 12-0-0. also maybe we wouldn't have to suffer from the following common problems:

- the "pick 4 songs out of 5" tanda everyone heard 5 times already this month
- the reverse situation where the DJ pads the tanda out with uninspired album filler material because they are also bored of picking the same 4 out of 5 songs, and besides they bought too many tracks and want to get value for their money
- incoherent tandas with wild mood swings between songs because the DJ doesn't actually understand music and just goes by the name of the band leader and recording date

 

[JournalInTime]

I believe that a region's experience with "individual songs, not tandas" would depend greatly on the overlap between the local tango community and other local dance communities.

Around here, tanguer@s under 40 – especially those under 30 – regularly voice a preference for "songs, not sets," because many of them also belong to the swing and Latin dance communities, which do things that way. If they're being honest with me, a higher percentage of attendees get to dance, and everyone dances more, thanks to that. That group also has a preference for verbal invitations by both leaders and followers, and finds mirada-cabeceo archaic, sexist, and annoying. I'm not sure that you can untangle the two (tandas and mirada-cabeceo) easily; I suspect that if you changed one, you'd open the door to changing the other.

Whether that would be good or bad is a matter of opinion. As someone who got into tango because I liked the music and the movement mechanics, I couldn't care less about the hard-to-nail-down "mystique" or the vestiges of old Argentine culture, so I don't think "leaders and followers alike draw partners onto the floor to dance one tune at a time" would bother me. But traditionalists would go to war over it, and some fraction of older dancers would grumble, "Bah! I did swing and salsa when I was younger! I came here to get away from that chaos!"

Which said, if I believe those who've shared their views on this matter, such changes would help solve the "women who aren't asked to dance" problem that this thread is ostensibly about: Those women could more comfortably invite people to dance (I freely admit that there are a few women I never invite because they intimidate the **** out of me . . . but I'd say "yes" if they invited me), while other people might invite them more often if they were committed to one song rather than three or four (I also freely admit that there are women whose height, strength, habits, technique, etc. make dancing a tanda tiring . . . but they're still fun, and I'd love to dance, say, a single vals without offending them by not dancing two more).

 

[TTanguero]

I freely admit that there are a few women I never invite because they intimidate the **** out of me . . . but I'd say "yes" if they invited me

But they can, by mirada.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

I find people strongly attached to cabeceo/Mirada in Moscow. Verbal invitations go down badly here. Would be considered highly aggressive.

 

[JournalInTime]

But they can, by mirada.

An intimidating person staring at me with a gaze full of intent doesn't make them less intimidating; it makes them more intimidating. Whereas "Hey! How's it going? How's work? Your mum? Oh, can we dance the next vals?" is disarming. There are plenty of advanced dancers – mainly teachers and performers – with whom I'm friendly and casual in conversation (because I've known them for years, served them drinks as a barman, and even shared social activities with), but who make me doubt my worthiness in the ultra-specific context of tango invitations.

 

[JournalInTime]

I find people strongly attached to cabeceo/Mirada in Moscow. Verbal invitations go down badly here. Would be considered highly aggressive.

I imagine there's a vast discussion of cultural differences one could have here. I'm fairly certain that words vs. gaze, how long a gaze can be held, who's allowed to gaze and who isn't, etc. is not nearly as universal as tango people like to believe. And when I say "culture," I'm not referring to big slices of culture like "Latin," "Eastern European," "early 20th century," or whatever; I'm talking about the micro-culture of this specific city this week.

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

Whereas "Hey! How's it going? How's work? Your mum? Oh, can we dance the next vals?" is disarming.

The beginning is Disarming, yes, if only a conversation! Absolutely not, given that the greeting was a prelude to a verbal invitation! The fact that someone was friendly in conversation does not in any way imply they want to dance with you. Assuming that is a good way to get people to ignore your greetings!

 

[WhiskeyPapa]

I imagine there's a vast discussion of cultural differences one could have here. I'm fairly certain that words vs. gaze, how long a gaze can be held, who's allowed to gaze and who isn't, etc. is not nearly as universal as tango people like to believe.

I agree 100%.

I spoke to an experienced follower yesterday who spoke harshly of over-aggressive mirada that forces men into a dance they don’t really want. The process is a subtle dance before the dance.

A verbal invitation from a follower or lead would be as shocking to her as showing up for a job interview in the nude. It would be forgiven only in someone new to the scene—and that person would be told outright not to do it that way.

 

[TTanguero]

"Hey! How's it going? How's work? Your mum? Oh, can we dance the next vals?" is disarming.

Hmm. I find a verbal invitation more intimidating, as there is no socially-acceptable[1] way to say no. A mirada can be made 100% clear, while at the same time allowing plausible deniability.

[1] I'm British. For us, social awkwardness has a fatality rate of around 80%.

 

[JournalInTime]

Hmm. I find a verbal invitation more intimidating, as there is no socially-acceptable[1] way to say no.

I guess I have no experience with that problem. I was a filthy punk with a NOMEANSNO attitude for quite some time, so "no" comes naturally to me.

I'm British. For us, social awkwardness has a fatality rate of around 80%.

I'm North American. While Canadians like me are known for our politeness, we're not actually more reserved. We'll tell you our medical problems, how much we earn, and what we had for lunch about 10 seconds after you accidentally bump into our shopping cart at the store that sells toilet paper in 144-roll lots.

 

[Rabbit]

Around here, tanguer@s under 40 – especially those under 30 – regularly voice a preference for "songs, not sets," because many of them also belong to the swing and Latin dance communities, which do things that way. If they're being honest with me, a higher percentage of attendees get to dance, and everyone dances more, thanks to that. That group also has a preference for verbal invitations by both leaders and followers, and finds mirada-cabeceo archaic, sexist, and annoying. I'm not sure that you can untangle the two (tandas and mirada-cabeceo) easily; I suspect that if you changed one, you'd open the door to changing the other.

I see no reason why someone couldn't start an event tailored to the preferences and values of the younger generation. After all, people who don't like the format can just not attend.

One thing I did notice when there are no cortinas is that there are actually more miradas directed at people who are already on the dance floor!