Why some women are not asked to dance

[opendoor]

..The proverbial immovable BA follower is not immovable because she is weak..

It's a chicken and egg question. The "proverbial immovable BA follower" has not learned to hold her axis because she has never seen the need to do so. I do not know all the porteñas who dance tango. But the vast majority of those I've danced with see tango as a folklore or traditional dance that you once get shown at family gatherings by your uncles and aunts. This is how wrong postures propagate. Those porteñas who learned tango abroad usually dance very well because they were taught professionally.

 

[JournalInTime]

But a drippy lethargic Vals is boring!

Sure, but there's a difference between "fast enough to mark the music" – which doesn't require exceptional speed because the music was composed with ordinary old dancers in mind – and "too fast." We have way too many dancers around here who are too fast . . . Of the traditional vals timings (1-1-1, 1-2-1, 1-3-1, and 1-2-3), they use only 1-2-3. They also use 1-and-2-and-3-and-, 1-and-and-2-and-and-3-and-and-, and "as fast as humanly possible – ha ha music, what's that?" The latter is most often in circular colgadas, which simply don't need that to spin nicely. As Murat said once, "If you can't get a full circle out of one step, you're doing it wrong."

Just last night I was behind a guy who, in the space of one bar of vals, managed to cross behind three times (three steps) and execute a sacada after each cross (three more steps). It didn't look fun; it looked chaotic and ugly. Nothing wrong with 1-1-1 sometimes, and nobody is too slow for that.

 

[JournalInTime]

Beauty alone is not sufficient in dance world. It gives you a certain advantage but if you don’t have skills, good dancers don’t make you a priority only because of good looks. Over the years both men and woman have expressed how when it comes to dancing, good dancer triumphs in their book over good looks or age.

Data point: I danced 14 tandas last night, and while everyone I danced with had "inner beauty," none were camera-beautiful or young. I specifically avoided a gaggle of young, pretty girls who were trying to get me to invite them because not one of them could keep her feet on the ground. The place was crowded due to a visiting teacher, and I had no desire to apologize for unled kicks three times per tango. Instead I danced with people in their 50s like me, on up to one in her 80s, because they were trying to dance well, not show off long legs, short skirts, and attitudes.

Data point: Two nights ago, I danced 12 or 13 tandas and did the exact same thing. Okay, one partner was much younger than me (I know her and know her age), but that was it. It was even more crowded and the people there were even more into showing off.

I suspect that how crowded and navigationally challenging the milonga is affects who you pick to dance with. Younger, more exuberant partners are difficult at densely packed events. People who through skill won't get heels high in the air in such an environment, or through age are experienced enough (or I guess not flexible enough) to do so, are preferable partners there.

Which isn't to say I "reverse discriminate" against youth and beauty. When the milonga is slow, I totally will dance with people who have crazy legs. I have a few younger partners who are fun that way. But I never ask them to dance when I'm going to move all of two metres during an entire tanda, in a room packed three lanes deep.

 

[JournalInTime]

Re: speed

But relevant for milonga, surely

Speed at which you can move from step to step and note to note is very important there, I agree. In my original mention of speed, I was thinking more in terms of running speed. I'd class the speed you need for milonga under "precision" or "reflexes," which I think are important. Actual ability to cover ground at a run, though, doesn't seem to have much to do with milonga, which is traditionally danced even more in place with even smaller steps than tango or vals.

A sign of a bad milonga dancer is one who doesn't diminish step size to increase step speed, so they take more steps of the same size they'd use for tango, and end up running around. As one of my teachers liked to say, "The faster your steps, the smaller they must be. There are fast steps, there are long steps, but there are no fast, long steps."

 

[itwillhappen]

They do. But it doesn’t preclude the others from getting their share of dances. There are nights where only couple of my desired partners show up at 80+ people milonga. There are other nights that perhaps 7 or 8 partners I desire to dance with are present. In either case there are tandas I will dance with unknown face (generally visitor), personal relationships, and others. There are enough nights I don’t get to dance with at least one or two of my desired partners.

Beauty alone is not sufficient in dance world. It gives you a certain advantage but if you don’t have skills, good dancers don’t make you a priority only because of good looks. Over the years both men and woman have expressed how when it comes to dancing, good dancer triumphs in their book over good looks or age.

Data point: I danced 14 tandas last night, and while everyone I danced with had "inner beauty," none were camera-beautiful or young. I specifically avoided a gaggle of young, pretty girls who were trying to get me to invite them because not one of them could keep her feet on the ground. The place was crowded due to a visiting teacher, and I had no desire to apologize for unled kicks three times per tango. Instead I danced with people in their 50s like me, on up to one in her 80s, because they were trying to dance well, not show off long legs, short skirts, and attitudes.

...

Which isn't to say I "reverse discriminate" against youth and beauty.

Yes, that all very well describes my personal situation and the weekly milonga that I am about to attend. But there I only see those present, so there is a strong bias towards the "survivors". I don't see the same crowd at milongas as in supermarkets, in terms of age group.

In surveys, in dance partner portals, before the first beginner class, the interest gender ratio in this country is ~3:1. And due to filters that one maybe even don't want to know exactly, it becomes ~1:1 ... at least at some evening milongas with traditional music.

 

[JournalInTime]

The "proverbial immovable BA follower" has not learned to hold her axis because she has never seen the need to do so [...] This is how wrong postures propagate.

It isn't innately wrong to dance slightly off-axis at all times. It's a valid style of dance.

Apilado ranges from 0% ("holding your own axis at all times," as preferred by salon performers) and 100% ("slumping your weight onto your partner at all times," the lazy or badly taught dancers). Teachers who favor the 0% end talk about the "illusion" of weight- and axis-sharing. However, plenty of us dance at 20-30% all the time, where it isn't an illusion. Done right, you get what's sometimes called "controlled instability" in the aeronautics world: You're teetering right at the edge of control and can let go of control for just an instant to get very swift and extreme responses (e.g., changes of direction). It's a lot of fun, and can feel like flying (not heavy at all) if you practice!

 

[opendoor]

...a valid style of dance.

Now I choose more carefully with whom I want to dance.

 

[JournalInTime]

Now I choose more carefully with whom I want to dance.

We all have to. I cannot dance well with these straight-as-pins followers who won't sacrifice any axis at all. Other people can't stand to sacrifice any axis at all. Depending on your body type, one or the other will be more comfortable. However, it isn't a universal thing . . . As someone who carries a lot of his height in his torso, I like major torso contact bringing my partner very near for leg entanglements, but I've noticed that taller and longer-limbed leaders prefer more distance and verticality than I do.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

? - Tango is all about core+back strength and using that for skeletal alignment/grounding and i don't think that younger people have per definiton an advantage in that. The proverbial immovable BA follower is not immovable because she is weak. I think one of the reasons that people don't enjoy constantly connected and grounded CE is that maintaining ones own bodies and the couples alignment while moving requires quite a bit of strength. And i honestly have no idea how to properly develop this type of strength within the context of AT. While it might be possible to develop it by just dancing a lot it is much more likely that by the time that that strength is there ones habits and posture are already set

Core strength, leg strength is always useful but you should not need to exert force (use your strength) when dancing. You do need a certain amount of energy to lead, however, and a sense of intentionality. I'm not sure an immoveable follower is the best partner though (and I've danced with quite a few of them).

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Over the years both men and woman have expressed how when it comes to dancing, good dancer triumphs in their book over good looks or age.

One would think. However, that's not always the case. Popularity triumphs far more than "good dancing."

 

[opendoor]

..Popularity triumphs far more than "good dancing."

Thats it. But I don't want to judge, there are many more reasons: get attention, compare, to compensate or (as in the golden age) to flirt.

 

[Bailango]

Unfortunately there is a significant reduction in ability to balance with age.

Changes in the Equilibrium of Standing on One Leg at Various Life Stages - PMC

The ability to maintain a one-leg standing position and the relation between plantar two-point discrimination and standing time on one leg were assessed. Participants were 1,241 apparently healthy people aged 2–92 years. Participants were asked to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The balancing on one foot with eyes closed has really deteriorated for me. In my 20s I did not find it difficult and could do it just about indefinitely. Now in my 40s I have to really focus hard and clench my abs like crazy to get to a minute. Otherwise I touch down in a few seconds. It's demoralizing.

The main balance in Tango is in walking. Which requires proper technique. Part of which consists of grounded weight transfers. Common to all dance movements is engaging core.

I always had better balance and endurance than my peers in any physical activity whether sports or dancing. If my technique is slightly off, or I am not paying attention and let my partner pull me off my axis, I will have to catch myself from losing balance when dancing the simple tango walk. I rarely ever lose balance in any other activity or dance style.

I said main because we spend more time walking than other movements. The ochos, molinetes/giros, enrosque, lapiz, and many other figures also require balance. But with practice and right technique it is very attainable. The challenge is figuring out the technique that works for you. Most instructors aren’t really good at breaking down technique.

One of extremely popular class locally, ages ago was a 90 minute walking class. It used to get so packed that people had to register for drop in. The studio could only hold 40 people and 50-60 people would show up. Another very popular instructor used to spend first 30 minutes of her two hour weekly class only on walk. A big majority in both were not beginners but age ranged from 20s to 60s.

Luckily we don’t need to walk on balance beam or pirouette to dance tango Tango is like fine wine. Only gets better with age.

But relevant for milonga, surely

Yes, I was planning to add a caveat for milonga. Since you are a salsa dancer, milonga should be easier for you In my experience I can lead a untrained salsera in a milonga easier than 70% of tangueras. They can adapt to quick syncopations, change of direction, double time, shorter steps easier. I find a lot of Tangueras struggle with it. During milonga tanda, 60% of the people are still doing tango steps. That despite milonga workshops being offered every week by at least two different traveling instructors during summer. I assume these workshops must be very popular if they are been offered constantly by a string of different well known names.

 

[Bailango]

One would think. However, that's not always the case. Popularity triumphs far more than "good dancing."

Yes that too!!! Most who are popular are consummate insiders. Not beginners nor new arrivals.

 

[tangoing]

Unfortunately there is a significant reduction in ability to balance with age.

Changes in the Equilibrium of Standing on One Leg at Various Life Stages - PMC

The ability to maintain a one-leg standing position and the relation between plantar two-point discrimination and standing time on one leg were assessed. Participants were 1,241 apparently healthy people aged 2–92 years. Participants were asked to ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The balancing on one foot with eyes closed has really deteriorated for me. In my 20s I did not find it difficult and could do it just about indefinitely. Now in my 40s I have to really focus hard and clench my abs like crazy to get to a minute. Otherwise I touch down in a few seconds. It's demoralizing.



But relevant for milonga, surely

There's actually a trick to make that exercise easier - just imagine yourself holding onto something with one of your hands even with your eyes closed.

 

[Gssh]

The "proverbial immovable BA follower" has not learned to hold her axis because she has never seen the need to do so. I do not know all the porteñas who dance tango.

This is probably a true scotsman problem, but for me what differentiated good followers in BA from good followers elsewhere was that there was a lot of grounding happening. I see people demonstrate this when teaching, but it rarely appears in social dance. It is in some ways exactly the opposite of not holding the axis - i think it is as having control of ones axis from the floor to the top of the head, and connecting everything. I probably should not have used the term "immovable" - it is just that in my experience what seems to be happening is that followers who are dancing "down" get experienced as "not moving" by leaders who are accustomed to a more lifted style of movement.

Holding ones axis really what i wanted to talk about - keeping ones whole body connected and moving with control requires quite a bit of strength. And in my experience this type of strength seems to peak later and seems to be maintainable for quite a bit longer. (The most researched version of this might be grip strength which people have linked with aging)

Re: Balance: I don't think i would have fit that data with a quadratic curve - the main feature seems to be heteroskedasticity (and having peak ability at 40 with 60 year olds performing the same as 20 year olds is pretty encouraging ). (I tend to think that balance is one of the things we just tend to neglect when exercising)