Your 2010 AT resolutions?

[chrisjj]

Hiring a teacher for a private practice is something I have tried too but it does not work either because the teacher remains a teacher, even after agreeing that she has to be a mere partner.

How about hiring a partner who is genuinely a non-teacher?

And what about learning to follow? Most followers with whom I dance will take their same usual step, whatever I lead a small or a large one, and will do their same and usual pivot, whatever I lead a small or big one.

That's just a result of them have been programmed with fake tango for non-dancing guys learning preset steps under instructors. New girls don't have any such problems.

If I ask other followers, much less skilled than my partner and even than myself, the answer is "Oh I'd like to but...". They are the same followers who invite me when in a milonga.

Clearly they are milonga girls, not class girls. It really helps to understand that these are two different worlds, and it rarely does any good to try to move someone between them. Unless that someone is yourself.

 

[Mario7]

:roll:
..Finding such a partner is not difficult... it's virtually impossible, because if you really want to learn, you don't need a partner at your level, you need a partner that is better than you.
If you are a follow, you need someone who can lead you, not someone who is trying to learn a complicated skill of leading. If you are a leader, you need a patient follow that will not anticipate and that will not try to compensate your errors, which is not so easy.
The only way to achieve this, is going to milongas and practicas, dancing with many people..

..I'm happy to report that I've found such straight line reasoning (above) not to be factual. Perhaps, rank beginners would run into impossible difficulties but two mature adults with dance experience will be able to accomplish miracles together with a good give and take practica done on a regular basis. That has been my experience. I'm an autodidactic type and I've made a point of learning how to learn (music, language, art, etc).
With the luck of finding two regular practice partners, last year, I was able to reach all of my tango dance goals in three months when I thought that it would take three years. I now have new goals but the basic knowledge that; yes I can dance fluent, beautiful, slow tango (milonga was never a problem), will always be mine thanks to regular practice with a practice partner (2). I find that the experience of many different partners in a regular dance is also of course VERY productive but very different. I contend that learning to fly with the same person will at least teach one that flying is possible. Trying to learn that while compensating for the distracting differences of dozens of strangers will not be the most efficient way to get there...imo

 

[Lilly_of_the_valley]

Agreed but when finding *one* follower who will attend one class being already difficult enough to become my resolution for the year, searching *multiple* partners who will also agree to practice *between* the classes is not an option.




Hiring a teacher for a private practice is something I have tried too but it does not work either because the teacher remains a teacher, even after agreeing that she has to be a mere partner. At some point she will say "Ok I just can't follow if you keep this abrazo|distance|posture|whatever, your abrazo|distance|posture|whatever should be like this..."



And what about learning to follow? Most followers with whom I dance will take their same usual step, whatever I lead a small or a large one, and will do their same and usual pivot, whatever I lead a small or big one.

There are enough teachers here to attend one class every day. But the one partner I have is willing to attend one class per month and not more. If I ask other followers, much less skilled than my partner and even than myself, the answer is "Oh I'd like to but...". They are the same followers who invite me when in a milonga. My resolution for this year is to stop being upset by this situation where the lack of dedication by followers prevents any progress in my tango.

Newbie, I feel for you. One way I have seen it done was to pay a partner's tuition for a class or workshop. Do you think it could work in your case?

Why multiple partners are not an option, no public practicas in your area? Perhaps, you could start one?

How do normally people learn tango in your area? You do have some good dancers in your community, I assume, how did they become good? Or do they all come from other places?

 

[Dave Bailey]

:roll:
...compensating for... the compensation? I guess you'll finish... compensating the compensation of compensation!!

My point was, simply, that there are strengths and weaknesses in all types of learning environment.

For example, if you learn exclusively in 1-2-1s with a single teacher, you only get the viewpoint and experience of that teacher. But that doesn't mean you should never take 1-2-1s with a teacher. It means you need a mixture, and you need to be aware of those strengths and weaknesses, as you do with all teaching / learning environments.

That's all.

Blimey.

Sure working on technique is better than memorizing moves or sequencies, but I don't think it will resolve the problem of practicing with the same partner.

Depends if your partner's any good. And if you are, of course.

Finding such a partner is not difficult... it's virtually impossible, because if you really want to learn, you don't need a partner at your level, you need a partner that is better than you.

No, because that's simply another name for an unpaid private class.

In a proper practice session, you give and take equally. The clue's in the name "practice partnership".

Blimey again.

If you are a follow, you need someone who can lead you, not someone who is trying to learn a complicated skill of leading. If you are a leader, you need a patient follow that will not anticipate and that will not try to compensate your errors, which is not so easy.
The only way to achieve this, is going to milongas and practicas, dancing with many people.

Firstly, if you use milongas to practice, then you're doing it wrong.

Secondly, if you go to a practica and just ask random partners for advice, how do you know that their advice is worth anything? They may be ignorant, they may be deluded, and they won't know enough about you to give critique which are relevant to you.

Apart from that...

 

[Dave Bailey]

We did. And you just walked into it :raisebro:

Well I got a new video camera for Xmas, you know.

 

[Dave Bailey]

..I'm happy to report that I've found such straight line reasoning (above) not to be factual. Perhaps, rank beginners would run into impossible difficulties but two mature adults with dance experience will be able to accomplish miracles together with a good give and take practica done on a regular basis. That has been my experience.

That's also been my experience. I've had a regular practice partner for an 18-month period and my dancing improved vastly. As did hers.

And, what's more, I can prove it, because we videod the sessions, and the difference for both of us is clear over that period. And I know for a fact that she took no classes in that time, and I only took a few.

Hmmm.... mods, maybe this should be a separate thread? Even for us lot, it's diverged a looooong way...

 

[chanchan]

No, because that's simply another name for an unpaid private class.

You can call it as you want, but why shouldn't it be good to learn?

In a proper practice session, you give and take equally. The clue's in the name "practice partnership".

If you dance with everybody and your level is not too much higher than the mean, you should globally give and take quite equally, otherwise your problem is not finding a dance partner, but finding someone at your level.

Firstly, if you use milongas to practice, then you're doing it wrong.

I didn't say "practicing", but "dancing": there is nothing wrong in going to a milonga and dance (also) with people better than you, doing steps that you can do. Your dance will improve also without any specific advice.
If you are in a practica you can also try new steps, or ask good dancers for advices.
An advice given by many dancers that you find good is problably much more reliable than the one given only by only one.
The fact that they don't know you is only a benefit: it's a more neutral point of view.
Moreover, she doesn't know if you are working at some specific aspect of tango and what: maybe you discover that you have something else to work at which is more important.

 

[chanchan]

I contend that learning to fly with the same person will at least teach one that flying is possible.

I know that flying is possible and is very easy... you just have to get on an airplane...
There are many tricks and shortcuts to accomplish miracles in few months.
It depends only on what you want: I am assuming that the minimum final target is being able to dance with everybody, improvising, fluently and following the music.

Trying to learn that while compensating for the distracting differences of dozens of strangers will not be the most efficient way to get there...imo

Actually you can't compensate anything if you change partner: you can only consider things that are common to all. I know that this is more difficult and differences can initally be distracting, but sooner or later you have to cope with them.

 

[dchester]

Actually you can't compensate anything if you change partner: you can only consider things that are common to all.

Maybe you can't, but I can.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Maybe you can't, but I can.

Me too - and I'm far (very far) from being advanced.

It just takes a bit of thinking about and preparation.

 

[chanchan]

Me too - and I'm far (very far) from being advanced.

It just takes a bit of thinking about and preparation.

Maybe be we are not talking about the same thing.
By compensation I mean that when your partner repeats the same error many times you will unconsciously tend to do the opposite error so that the result would be apparently correct.
Distinguishing between a real improvement and a compensation is not always very easy.
Most obvious case of compensation is when the leading is wrong or weak and the follower will do anyway her steps because she knows what to do, but it can happen in many other situations.

 

[bordertangoman]

... otherwise your problem is not finding a dance partner, but finding someone at your level.

.

tell me about it......

 

[Captain Jep]

tell me about it......

Quick question : how as a matter of interest did you do your teaching then?

 

[Mario7]

Maybe be we are not talking about the same thing.
By compensation I mean that when your partner repeats the same error many times you will unconsciously tend to do the opposite error so that the result would be apparently correct.
Distinguishing between a real improvement and a compensation is not always very easy.
Most obvious case of compensation is when the leading is wrong or weak and the follower will do anyway her steps because she knows what to do, but it can happen in many other situations.

A lot of practice is simply dancing and giving each other feedback. If I am compensating for some lack of balance, etc....I must inform my partner...that's what practice is for.
If there was a specific sequence that I was trying to master, I would not show the sequence that I was trying to master, I would try to lead it instead. THE agreement going into the practica would be that every step, pivot, twitch has got to be lead...everything! ...IMO..only the small adornment when the woman is given time, space and position to do it, is not exactly led.
..Perhaps, we should start a specific thread on this topic of how to practice (or even if it's possible) ?

 

[dchester]

Maybe be we are not talking about the same thing.
By compensation I mean that when your partner repeats the same error many times you will unconsciously tend to do the opposite error so that the result would be apparently correct.
Distinguishing between a real improvement and a compensation is not always very easy.
Most obvious case of compensation is when the leading is wrong or weak and the follower will do anyway her steps because she knows what to do, but it can happen in many other situations.

A compensation can be a conscious decision as well.