A Comfortable Embrace

[JohnEm]

I think it is always acceptable for one partner to let the other know what they need in the embrace to be comfortable, period. It shouldn't matter if you're a leader or follower.

Good

However, I do not think it's okay to judge the comfort or the (restraining my own high level of irritation at this notion) the appropriateness, of the embrace from the outside. Only the people within the embrace know if they're uncomfortable. It's not my place to judge someone else's embrace if they're not the ones holding me, and they're not bashing into me with pointy elbows.

Read the OP, it's all about how it feels and whether it's comfortable or not.
Although dancing apilado there's no doubt to me that the arm should on top
of mine and reaching towards or behind the neck as far as is comfortable.
It maintains, even reinforces the chest to chest connection and positively
assists the lady to react to the movement.

/rant.

Two of you irritated now, do tango ladies have low tolerance thresholds?

 

[mkjohnson]

FWIW, I prefer the apilado embrace, and I agree that, in general, the arm over the top shoulders and/or around the neck achieves an easier, more comfortable connection. There are cases however where, as Bastet said, due to posture problems, build, height etc., where adjustments need to be made for the comfort of both partners.

As for my irritation level, that's not about the original question (whether or not someone should be able to ask for what is comfortable for them - which of course they should) so much as the second blog post that was quoted. I have no problem with someone asking me to adjust to what's comfortable for them. I do get tired of hearing people trying to dictate what's acceptable and appropriate for everyone else (outside of floorcraft issues), as though they're on some holy crusade to save tango from the nuevo horde.

 

[JohnEm]

FWIW, I prefer the apilado embrace, and I agree that, in general, the arm over the top shoulders and/or around the neck achieves an easier, more comfortable connection. There are cases however where, as Bastet said, due to posture problems, build, height etc., where adjustments need to be made for the comfort of both partners.

Yes and I agree with Bastet too, there's nothing wrong for the lady to
reach only as far as is comfortable as long as her arm isn't weighing
down and is on top of the man's arm. That is the embrace which has evolved
in the practicas and crowded milongas of Buenos Aires with form following function.
Who are we to change it?

As for my irritation level, that's not about the original question (whether or not someone should be able to ask for what is comfortable for them - which of course they should) so much as the second blog post that was quoted. I have no problem with someone asking me to adjust to what's comfortable for them. I do get tired of hearing people trying to dictate what's acceptable and appropriate for everyone else (outside of floorcraft issues), as though they're on some holy crusade to save tango from the nuevo horde.

Well I'm no apologist for Alberto Paz but he never says a word about Nuevo.
Therefore, should I imply from you that this hold variation is a Nuevo thing?

 

[bastet]

Well I'm no apologist for Alberto Paz but he never says a word about Nuevo.
Therefore, should I imply from you that this hold variation is a Nuevo thing?

Because in Nuevo you tend to dance in a type of "v" where the resistance comes from the partners shoulder joint area (and I only had one class on this so I don't particularly know what I'm talking about), leading to the type of arm look so despised in the photos (ladies arm around the back). And, the ladies hand on the pocket thing is something I use almost exclusively with Nuevo people because it really helps me with the way they tend to lead so it's kind of hard not to draw an inference.

 

[mkjohnson]

I should have clarified, you're right, he never said a word about nuevo in that particular post. I chose the Nuevo term because it's so frequently a favorite target. Mea culpa. And variations on the "lung hold" etc. are not nuevo stylings in particular. Just like a close embrace doesn't automatically indicate apilado.

And it's not just Alberto, though he is one of the most vocal on the subject. So much of this comes from, I think, the fact that the embrace is so personal - it is at the heart of the dance. When the strong feelings we have about what it means to embrace, and be embraced in tango, turn into "what I'm doing is right and what you're doing is wrong" - I get annoyed. Certainly more than I should. (Particularly when my rant threatens to hijack a thread.)

 

[mkjohnson]

Bastet - now that I think about it, that is when I tend to use that 'hand on the back' variation more. Except with one partner who is significantly shorter than I am where having my arm across his back rather than his shoulders, is just more comfortable for both of us. *shrug* I've also noticed that typically open embrace dancers who dance close embrace with me, still want my arm further down on their back. Even though they're dancing close - they're still leading in a way that doesn't exactly feel like close embrace. Does that make sense?

 

[bastet]

Bastet - now that I think about it, that is when I tend to use that 'hand on the back' variation more. Except with one partner who is significantly shorter than I am where having my arm across his back rather than his shoulders, is just more comfortable for both of us. *shrug* I've also noticed that typically open embrace dancers who dance close embrace with me, still want my arm further down on their back. Even though they're dancing close - they're still leading in a way that doesn't exactly feel like close embrace. Does that make sense?

perfectly. it usually feels better to me to use this type of arm with them, and since they ask me more than once to dance, I'm assuming my instinct was fine for it.

Another thing I think that people either forget or aren't taking in to consideration at all is height as a factor for the traditional arm around the neck. It's not such a issue between Argentines as there is often (not always) a certain lack of height variation issue so that the arm around the neck works (and if you note in the photos Alberto and Valerie are also fairly matched in height). But in America and Europe, significant height variation for guys and girls is a fact that has to be dealt with and the arm all the way around just isn't feasible sometimes, no matter how much I might prefer it. Some teachers even suggest you just don't dance with people that aren't your height and that would leave out a lot of people for me, unless I move to Argentina.

 

[Peaches]

Amen!

I'm short. Even in heels, and pretty high ones at that...I'm still just damn short. Arm around the neck, while it's a great idea in theory, just doesn't work out for me sometimes. And I'm not willing to give up dances just because I'm freakin' stumpy. Along the same lines, weight and build also have a lot to do with what is comfortable.

A question that has occurred to me since I wrote my first answer... This "hand on lung" thing--is that referring to the girl's left arm on the guy's right side or his left? I assumed it was talking about his right, on account of the elbow comments, but possibly not? Not that it changes my answer much...if at all...except I think I'm too short to do "hand on his left side" most of the time.

 

[bastet]

Amen!

I'm short. Even in heels, and pretty high ones at that...I'm still just damn short. Arm around the neck, while it's a great idea in theory, just doesn't work out for me sometimes. And I'm not willing to give up dances just because I'm freakin' stumpy. Along the same lines, weight and build also have a lot to do with what is comfortable.

A question that has occurred to me since I wrote my first answer... This "hand on lung" thing--is that referring to the girl's left arm on the guy's right side or his left? I assumed it was talking about his right, on account of the elbow comments, but possibly not? Not that it changes my answer much...if at all...except I think I'm too short to do "hand on his left side" most of the time.

I think you may have to be in a pretty hefty shoulder joint "v" to get all the way to their left side that way....I think....maybe Zoops knows.

And now all the posts are followers talking about the accommodations they make for guys and logical reasons why they do it and yet I still only see comments from the leads about "I don't like X or Y" with not too much constructive as to what they do to facilitate not themselves, but their partner....just sayin'....

So come on guys, what accommodations do you make on a comfortable embrace? How do you change it (if at all) from a "traditional" hold to something else and when as opposed to expecting her to do all the changing?

The ladies have answered pretty fairly and logically, from what I can see. And I'm not trying to start an argument, but just saying "I don't like hold X or Y" isn't very helpful.

Anda comes closest with arm around the should helps aplilado, and I agree. But what if she isn't an apilado dancer. What do you do different from tradition to try to accommodate?

 

[JohnEm]

A question that has occurred to me since I wrote my first answer... This "hand on lung" thing--is that referring to the girl's left arm on the guy's right side or his left? I assumed it was talking about his right, on account of the elbow comments, but possibly not? Not that it changes my answer much...if at all...except I think I'm too short to do "hand on his left side" most of the time.

Peaches, to answer your question here's the crux of it:

So far I've resisted (speaking) unless it causes real pain from my upper right arm
being surrounded and pressed on by the ladies left arm. Then I've taken
to asking for my partner to embrace traditional style, or at the very least
to place her arm on top of mine which gives her the choice of whether to
reach around behind my neck. So is it acceptable for a man to explain
nicely to a woman that her own embrace is discomforting?

In view of your short stature, it's perfectly fine just to reach comfortably on top and along
your partner's right arm with your left arm. Much better in my view than reaching around
your partner's arm provided of course that you like the chest to chest connection.

 

[Peaches]

I think you may have to be in a pretty hefty shoulder joint "v" to get all the way to their left side that way....I think....maybe Zoops knows.

Eh. I've danced with some very small, slim guys...and that was actually the most comfortable place for my arm/hand. Around the neck/shoulders just didn't work--left elbow poking out backwards--awkward and uncomfortable, all in one!

Like I said, I don't think it really changes my answer...except that I use it a lot less than on his right side...

 

[JohnEm]

So come on guys, what accommodations do you make on a comfortable embrace? How do you change it (if at all) from a "traditional" hold to something else and when as opposed to expecting her to do all the changing?

The ladies have answered pretty fairly and logically, from what I can see. And I'm not trying to start an argument, but just saying "I don't like hold X or Y" isn't very helpful.

Anda comes closest with arm around the should helps aplilado, and I agree. But what if she isn't an apilado dancer. What do you do different from tradition to try to accommodate?

No wonder threads don't stay on topic when they're hijacked like this.
We hear lots of what women want, what men are expected to do.
For once I've turned it around and asked how important is it that the other partner
is comfortable too and how much consideration and understanding would you give that?

I could by the way give you chapter and verse but not here, not now.

So can we stay on topic please.

 

[bastet]

No wonder threads don't stay on topic when they're hijacked like this.
We hear lots of what women want, what men are expected to do.
For once I've turned it around and asked how important is it that the other partner
is comfortable too and how much consideration and understanding would you give that?

I could by the way give you chapter and verse but not here, not now.

So can we stay on topic please.

just sayin'- it's about all we got in the other thread too. the thread is comfortable embrace, but it's yoru thread and if you define comfortable by only traditional I'll stay out. no problem.

 

[Peaches]

Peaches, to answer your question here's the crux of it:



In view of your short stature, it's perfectly fine just to reach comfortably on top and along
your partner's right arm with your left arm. Much better in my view than reaching around
your partner's arm provided of course that you like the chest to chest connection.

Er...it's been a long day, but I still am not understanding the answer. Does "hand on lung" translate to the guy's right side or left?

Most of the time being short hasn't presented much of a problem. After all, I've had plenty of time to get used to it, so it's normal for me. I don't particularly care for having my left arm on top of his, unless I'm dancing open, and even then it's more a hand on upper arm kind of deal...and even that changes a lot depending on what we're doing. More commonly, though, I dance in close embrace. So...arm wherever it fits, so long as it isn't pinning and I'm not hanging. Never had a problem or a complaint.

Oh, hell, with some leaders things get changed up even more. Have danced with both arms around his neck (his arms around my waist--high school hug-n-sway style), the reverse of that, both my hands on his chest, left arm around his back and right hand on his chest/side-ish. With another leader friend he tends to curl his left hand in to his chest. It's all good.

 

[Peaches]

No wonder threads don't stay on topic when they're hijacked like this.
We hear lots of what women want, what men are expected to do.
For once I've turned it around and asked how important is it that the other partner
is comfortable too and how much consideration and understanding would you give that?

I could by the way give you chapter and verse but not here, not now.

So can we stay on topic please.

Must have missed the point in the OP where it was strictly about ladies accomodating men. I thought it was general musings on comfortable embraces, period, and how current aesthetic something or others are hijacking tradition.

Sheesh.

ETA: As regards the "how much consideration" followers would give if the partner said he was uncomfortable...asked and answered. That's a rule of thumb regardless of what we're talking about, or who we're talking about. Always. But if no one speaks up, then no adjustments can be made to adapt to that person's preferences, so we're left going by what's comfortable for us. Which we followers have been talking about.