A Comfortable Embrace

[dchester]

I can always tell if a lady is backleading, mainly because I am not being permitted to. If my intent isn't first then she is ahead of me, the connection is usually gone and probably the timing too.

I agree that one usually can tell if the follower is just doing the steps rather than waiting for the lead. The problem for me (but maybe not you), is it prevents me from knowing if I am leading the steps properly. What I usually will do then, is to change the pattern. Then when she does the teacher's pattern instead of what I lead, it will usually cause her to question what I'm doing. I typically respond, "I'm trying to find out if I'm leading anything". Most followers then get it, but some need it spelled out that I need to practice more than the steps, I also need to practice the lead.

 

[JohnEm]

I agree that one usually can tell if the follower is just doing the steps rather than waiting for the lead. The problem for me (but maybe not you), is it prevents me from knowing if I am leading the steps properly.

And for me too. Not only that it can prevent you even being able to do the
steps/move/movement because you've been "carried" through them, the
leader has become the follower. I don't know about you but it can also
be quite confusing to be suddenly and unexpectedly on the receiving end.

What I usually will do then, is to change the pattern. Then when she does the teacher's pattern instead of what I lead, it will usually cause her to question what I'm doing. I typically respond, "I'm trying to find out if I'm leading anything". Most followers then get it, but some need it spelled out that I need to practice more than the steps, I also need to practice the lead.

Nice one. And on changing the pattern, one or two of the partners
I've had in the past would have been likely to stop me
and tell me I'm not doing it right!

 

[newbie]

What I usually will do then, is to change the pattern. Then when she does the teacher's pattern instead of what I lead...

Then I instantly stop and I let her go.

 

[Peaches]

Jezuz. A bit harsh, are we?

Personally, I find it extremely difficult to just follow whatever is led, regardless of what the guy is trying to lead. If I know what he's going for is X, I find it very hard not to feel X...unless he really and truly has no clue.

At milongas, which is where I dance (i.e., not practicas, not group classes) I consider this a skill. Without apology. Although I will say that in some respects following is like an exercise in continually overriding muscle memory. I find, that if I'm not paying 110% attention (yes, sometimes my mind wanders a bit), I slip back into that muscle memory and that's when I end up doing a pattern instead of following. Call it an occupational hazard.

 

[JohnEm]

Jezuz. A bit harsh, are we?

Don't know who you're aiming that at, but all of us only are telling it
as we've experienced it. It maybe unpalatable but . . . of course Peaches
it wouldn't apply to you.

Personally, I find it extremely difficult to just follow whatever is led, regardless of what the guy is trying to lead. If I know what he's going for is X, I find it very hard not to feel X...unless he really and truly has no clue.

Or maybe it does . . . . ! Joking aside (yes just jesting) of course you have
yet another point. It's easy to forget that patterns are taught to both partners
and the lady has seen it, maybe practised it separately (unfortunately),
so knows it already. Then you're expecting some sort of lead and are likely
to respond to it regardless of quality. It's one of the downsides of group classes
which isn't the subject of this thread. Now what was the subject?

At milongas, which is where I dance (i.e., not practicas, not group classes) I consider this a skill. Without apology. Although I will say that in some respects following is like an exercise in continually overriding muscle memory. I find, that if I'm not paying 110% attention (yes, sometimes my mind wanders a bit), I slip back into that muscle memory and that's when I end up doing a pattern instead of following. Call it an occupational hazard.

I don't believe you wrote that. Tell you what, I'll pretend I never read it.

 

[JohnEm]

Then I instantly stop and I let her go.

The old ones are the best.

 

[Temza]

(recovering from a minor operation, so will hang around for a while, if you guys don't mind )

I have found that the best thing to do in a class (on the rate occasions that I take a group class anymore) is follow what the man leads even if it wasn't what was taught. That means that if he doesn't lead the move correctly, I don't do the move.

In classes, I would usually do the same, with a minor difference: in the beginning I would tell my leader: "you do your steps and I will do what am I supposed to do", and I would let him have several goes at the move, 3 or 5 or maybe 7 attempts. Then I would say: "now you lead me", and then I might say: "I know you are trying to lead me this way but I actually feel you are leading me that way"; and so on. Or I might say: "this lead is a bit rough, this a bit indecisive, this is just perfect, let's do it again". I think all leaders are craving for constructive and respectful feedback at lessons and practicas. well, I do when I lead

 

[Peaches]

Don't know who you're aiming that at, but all of us only are telling it
as we've experienced it. It maybe unpalatable but . . . of course Peaches
it wouldn't apply to you.

I don't quibble with the experiences y'all have had. Not in the least. The few times I've tried leading (in workshops and such) it was a very mind-opening (and frustrating and back-hurting) experience. I'm just not a fan of the "if you don't do it right the way I say to do it, I'm going to disengage entirely" approach. It just seems overly harsh and counterproductive. YMMV.

I don't believe you wrote that. Tell you what, I'll pretend I never read it.

Why not? I stand by it. In a milonga, where the focus is (theoretically--there's a rather long thread which seems to debate the point) is social interaction, and creating an enjoyable tanda for yourself and your partner, I'm not going to teach. I'm not going to hold anyone to an exacting standard. I'm not going to deliberately do things wrong because they're led badly when I can tell what a guy is going for. If I can't tell what he's going for, I'll follow what I think he's doing (based on how things feel) to the best of my abilities. I'll find a way to make something of the dance, of the tanda, of the experience. He can learn in a lesson, he can practice in a practica, but when it comes to a milonga...I will make it about making the best dance I can for us with whatever he brings to the table. If his lead for a giro is all kinds of wonky...well, that's just his own way of leading a giro for the time being. I won't deliberately screw it up. I will make it what he's trying to make it. If a beginner is trying to lead an 8CB, but doesn't really have the cross, I'll probably cross anyway...it's just not the time to detail everything he's doing wrong and to make him frustrated.

 

[JohnEm]

I'm just not a fan of the "if you don't do it right the way I say to do it, I'm going to disengage entirely" approach. It just seems overly harsh and counterproductive. YMMV.

Ok - aimed at this last one then.

Then I instantly stop and I let her go.

Actually I can only ever doing that once and that was in a jive class not tango
so quite different. And it was with a back-leading coach who got it wrong
putting herself in the wrong place which was rather ironical.
Generally I'm with you and dchester hasn't advocated disengagement
either - in fact rightly he's really trying for more engagement.

Why not? I stand by it. In a milonga, where the focus is (theoretically--there's a rather long thread which seems to debate the point) is social interaction, and creating an enjoyable tanda for yourself and your partner, I'm not going to teach. I'm not going to hold anyone to an exacting standard. I'm not going to deliberately do things wrong because they're led badly when I can tell what a guy is going for. If I can't tell what he's going for, I'll follow what I think he's doing (based on how things feel) to the best of my abilities. I'll find a way to make something of the dance, of the tanda, of the experience. He can learn in a lesson, he can practice in a practica, but when it comes to a milonga...I will make it about making the best dance I can for us with whatever he brings to the table. If his lead for a giro is all kinds of wonky...well, that's just his own way of leading a giro for the time being. I won't deliberately screw it up. I will make it what he's trying to make it. If a beginner is trying to lead an 8CB, but doesn't really have the cross, I'll probably cross anyway...it's just not the time to detail everything he's doing wrong and to make him frustrated.

This is definitely one case of what you originally wrote is not what you meant.
I'm sure you'd find no-one quibbling with such a spirit of co-operation.

 

[newbie]

In classes, I would usually do the same, with a minor difference: in the beginning I would tell my leader: "you do your steps and I will do what am I supposed to do", and I would let him have several goes at the move, 3 or 5 or maybe 7 attempts. Then I would say: "now you lead me", and then I might say: "I know you are trying to lead me this way but I actually feel you are leading me that way"; and so on. Or I might say: "this lead is a bit rough, this a bit indecisive, this is just perfect, let's do it again".

You're talking about classes where you are the teacher, aren't you? "Now you do this... Now you do that... Sit... Go fetch... Good boy".

 

[Peaches]

This is definitely one case of what you originally wrote is not what you meant.
I'm sure you'd find no-one quibbling with such a spirit of co-operation.

Eh? *shrug* It's what I meant...although I guess it didn't come across clearly. I'll chalk that up to lack of sleep and not having had my morning caffeine.

 

[dchester]

Personally, I find it extremely difficult to just follow whatever is led, regardless of what the guy is trying to lead. If I know what he's going for is X, I find it very hard not to feel X...unless he really and truly has no clue.

OK, this confuses me a bit (maybe I'm not interpreting your post properly). Isn't one of the objectives for the follower to follow whatever is led (assuming the move is in her skill set, and there are no safety or comfort issues)?

At milongas, which is where I dance (i.e., not practicas, not group classes) I consider this a skill. Without apology. Although I will say that in some respects following is like an exercise in continually overriding muscle memory. I find, that if I'm not paying 110% attention (yes, sometimes my mind wanders a bit), I slip back into that muscle memory and that's when I end up doing a pattern instead of following. Call it an occupational hazard.

I dance at milongas, but that's not where I go to work on new things (or moves/leads that I don't consider "milonga ready" yet).

 

[Peaches]

OK, this confuses me a bit (maybe I'm not interpreting your post properly). Isn't one of the objectives for the follower to follow whatever is led (assuming the move is in her skill set, and there are no safety or comfort issues)?

Yes, that is the objective. Pretty much always. But I find it is much easier to do in a real dancing situation, where I've got absolutely no idea what is going to be led next than I do in a class situation. In a class situation, where you're working on a given pattern to learn/develop a certain aspect, I just find it very difficult to separate out what I'm actually feeling versus what I know I should be feeling.