A different way to teach tango

[Mladenac]

I guess that depends on what is most important to you. For me, the music is so much more than just that. Moving to (or with) the music is much more important than any figure. To be clear, I don't have any problem with people learning figures, but if they can't do it to the music, they are missing the point IMO, (i.e. walking to the music, is preferable to figures not done to the music, at least for me).

I meant that by learning complete technical side of an element i.e. figure we can fully adapt it to music.
Honing technical part of a figure can take years. And I would call a step forward a figure or an element.
I don't support dancing by heart in a gymnastic way, I support dancing to music as much as possible.
But as long as partner is overwhelmed with one's and other's technique music cannot be completely intepreted.
And by musical intepretation I think that emotional aspect is very important.

 

[opendoor]

OpenDoor: Do you step on EVERY note in milonga?

Of course I do not. But the musician in me (I play - better still learn - bandoneón, also overrides what once was written). We are free simply to reproduce like a robot, to reproduce with emphasis, to imporvise, or to create something new, regardless of playing an instrument or dancing.

 

[tangomaniac]

Of course I do not. But the musician in me (I play - better still learn - bandoneón also overrides what once was written). We are free simply to reproduce like a robot, to reproduce with emphasis, to imporvise, or to create something new, regardless of playing an instrument or dancing.

Thank you for confirming my earlier statement.

 

[opendoor]

Ok, but I also dont get that excited on the other hand!

 

[dchester]

There's a BIG difference between a musician and dancer. The musician has to play every note on the sheet. A dancer DOESN'T have to step on every note.

I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't appear to know much about musicians. Most good musicians can and do improvise (just like dancers). Maybe not at every situation (just like not all dancers always improvise), but it happens quite a bit.

 

[tangomaniac]

I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't appear to know much about musicians. Most good musicians can and do improvise (just like dancers). Maybe not at every situation (just like not all dancers always improvise), but it happens quite a bit.

So musicians in an orchestra don't follow the score and decide to improvise. I'm sure conductors love that.

 

[dchester]

So musicians in an orchestra don't follow the score and decide to improvise. I'm sure conductors love that.

If you are talking about something like a symphony orchestra playing Brahms, then you might have a point (and that is why I said maybe not in all situations). However your prior post you simply said musicians, without any qualifiers, which of course is not true at all.

If you think no musician in a tango orchestra, (or a rock band, or a swing band, or a jazz band, or . . .) has ever improvised, you have some things to learn.

 

[rain_dog]

If you can't execute a figure WITHOUT the music, you can't execute it WITH the music.

I'm curious: which figures do you have in mind are so difficult that learning them to music is a distraction? I can't think of any in the basic AT repertoire. This isn't ice skating, where we're trying to execute anything as hard as a triple toe-loop (for example). Personally, I think musicality is such a fundamental part of dancing AT that it should be incorporated from the very beginning.

 

[tangomaniac]

I'm curious: which figures do you have in mind are so difficult that learning them to music is a distraction? I can't think of any in the basic AT repertoire. This isn't ice skating, where we're trying to execute anything as hard as a triple toe-loop (for example). Personally, I think musicality is such a fundamental part of dancing AT that it should be incorporated from the very beginning.

Simple stuff, like ochos and molinetes. For beginner women, they don't finish the pivot and cross behind with their other foot. OR they push and pull on the man's arm as a crutch because they can't pivot because they are on their heel. Men with bad frame will pull and push a woman through ochos, causing a woman to lose her balance.

I've danced with women who pivoted the wrong way in molinetes. I lead them to go forward and they went backward because they pushed again my left hand.

 

[Lui]

Nevertheless, wouldn’t it be more helpful, to explain exactly how they achieve all this technique details, like maintaining the frame, the balance and the calmness to develop trust into the man’s lead. How about demonstrating the “why”. So throw in some exercise where the woman really feels how helpful it is to keep up all details and where they can build up those skills. For sure, it will be good to school the man in an analog way. At last throw in some hints, how they can handle the faults of their according partners, as nobody is perfect all the time.

Wouldn’t that all be more helpful than switching off the music.

 

[tangomaniac]

Nevertheless, wouldn’t it be more helpful, to explain exactly how they achieve all this technique details, like maintaining the frame, the balance and the calmness to develop trust into the man’s lead. How about demonstrating the “why”. So throw in some exercise where the woman really feels how helpful it is to keep up all details and where they can build up those skills. For sure, it will be good to school the man in an analog way. At last throw in some hints, how they can handle the faults of their according partners, as nobody is perfect all the time.

Wouldn’t that all be more helpful than switching off the music.

Everything you described should be done and dancers should move at their rate of speed to ensure they understand.

 

[Lui]

If you learn at a specific speed of movement, your own for example, you may need to unlearn it to hit the music. Unlearning is much harder than gradually learning it right. I think there is nothing wrong with breaking a pattern down in “good to chew chunks” and explaining, trying and constructing it step by step. And I agree, that is easier with no music (also for me as I don’t need to talk over the music). However, once they start to dance the whole pattern, the repetition will burn it down into their memory. Once remembered it is hard to change. So there better be a musical connection in that memory.

 

[tangomaniac]

I didn't have to unlearn anything. I had to become more focused. Once I learned how to lead ochos, it didn't make any difference if the music was tango, vals, or milonga. I felt which foot the woman was standing and that told me my options. If you learn figures to specific music, than you can only do figures to that music. Dancing to Pugliese is NOT the same as dancing to DiSarli. Dancing milonga is not the same as dancing vals. But an ocho is an ocho is an ocho.

 

[Lui]

You imply that I will use the same style of music for the whole lesson. Further could I reply: ”connecting to the music is connecting to the music, is …”

However, I feel the discussion has reached a dead end, at least for me. Why don’t you go out and become the greatest teacher of all times. A little competition is always good for the market

 

[bordertangoman]

If you learn at a specific speed of movement, your own for example, you may need to unlearn it to hit the music. Unlearning is much harder than gradually learning it right. I think there is nothing wrong with breaking a pattern down in “good to chew chunks” and explaining, trying and constructing it step by step. And I agree, that is easier with no music (also for me as I don’t need to talk over the music). However, once they start to dance the whole pattern, the repetition will burn it down into their memory. Once remembered it is hard to change. So there better be a musical connection in that memory.

i think one has to teach 5 things; movements/figures/steps; balance/posture/ musicality, dynamics and connection; all have to be present when dancing.
It is possible to teach theses elements in isolation or together..