At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

[pianistamediano]

It was as early as 2010 I first time reacted against Melinas blogpost and attitude towards male leaders. Tangotherapist and I were the only leaders doing so. I am not surprised about her ending up to the female group situation - it was actually stated in the comments.

Anonymous said...
And historically, the best way for women to create equality has been to start doing the job ourselves. As we learn to lead and can pick anyone we want, the men will be left to compete for the other dancers.
4 April 2011 at 05:53

Here link to her blog posting:

Good news. Really.

Tango and life seen through the eyes of Melina Sedo.

melinas-two-cent.blogspot.com

Ouch. That's a lot of repressed anger and pent-up frustration against men in tango. It's strange, because it reminds me of my exactly opposite situation some years ago when I was still a beginner. I am not handsome, and many experienced followers (young or not-so-young) simply ignored me, and I am grateful to the few who danced with me and showed me what tango could feel like. Most of the time, I danced with people around my age range (young I suppose, <40 according to her definition).

Even now, some of the same experienced followers do ignore me, so I admit to enjoying some schadenfreude whenever I spot them sitting for more than a tanda, staring at the dance floor.

It is very reflective of the dating market I think - younger girls tend to go for older men, younger men tend to be shafted and fend for themselves until they gain enough experience and skill, older men have some power, and older women find their dance prospects slowly diminishing.

At the very least the second half of her post is hopeful in a certain sense, but she seems to have reverted to her previous stance, judging by that recent Facebook post.

 

[Numawan]

The solution is obvious: tango will split into two dances! I suggest to name one of the branches fango, a compression of female + tango. Fango will be only for women, as leaders or as followers. Feminazis will guard the doors to stop any man from entering the dance floor and disturbing the peace inside the milongas.

The men will dance mango (= male + tango). They will dance between themselves in both roles as in the early days of tango in Bueno Aires. They surely will dance much better than today, as they won't be distracted by the opposite sex.

 

[Brummbaer]

It is very reflective of the dating market I think - younger girls tend to go for older men, younger men tend to be shafted and fend for themselves until they gain enough experience and skill, older men have some power, and older women find their dance prospects slowly diminishing.

Maybe wishful thinking. I never thought arm-candy was a good look, but if you can afford it, why not? A widowed acquaintance in his late 70's tells me his dating profile generally gets interest from younger (50+) women, but they're usually gold-diggers (he can afford it).

But dance, perhaps the interest in the older, experienced, lost, milongueros of the GA has been lost as they've passed away. Also, today's elderly won't have the years of AT experience.

It just needs male interest in dance, and perhaps a realisation about where the interesting women can be found.

 

[itwillhappen]

Ouch. That's a lot of repressed anger and pent-up frustration against men in tango.

After that, she successfully organized gender-balanced tango events for ten years or so.
But her new start seems to be bumpy.

It's strange, because it reminds me of my exactly opposite situation some years ago when I was still a beginner.

As long as it is a voluntary leisure activity, everyone only takes part if the attractive aspects outweigh the repulsive ones. That goes for everyone... for men and women. So no group needs to be envied or pitied.

However, if dancing is clearly more attractive for a group, then it will also put up with more suffering and complain much more because of this combination - towards a group that doesn't care about dancing and simply stays away.
The individual can of course feel very differently, and the individual case will also be different.

 

[itwillhappen]

Anonymous said...
And historically, the best way for women to create equality has been to start doing the job ourselves. As we learn to lead and can pick anyone we want, the men will be left to compete for the other dancers.
4 April 2011 at 05:53

It's been a dozen years since your comment. I don't have the impression that in between female leaders have had it easier than male leaders, quite the opposite.

And even if it should become normal for women to lead, they might not be able to pick anyone.
A new two-class society can also emerge, or something totally different, one will see.

 

[pianistamediano]

It's been a dozen years since your comment. I don't have the impression that in between female leaders have had it easier than male leaders, quite the opposite.

And even if it should become normal for women to lead, they might not be able to pick anyone.
A new two-class society can also emerge, or something totally different, one will see.

Just in case you might have mistaken that comment for LadyLeader's, here's what I think she posted:

I became lady leader 2004 and soon later I became a masculinist. Men/leaders do not have many ways to defend themselves when followers were frustrated!

There was time I saw men/leaders as dance slaves - even if we were dancing all the tandas it was never enough! You must dance with your partners - several tandas, friends, ask your friends friends, someone will test your dance, be kind to people who visit your town, take loving care of beginners and.. and …

The tandas are unevenly distributed also because of the followers - there are the followers who never go of the pista but asks on the floor for the next dance or uses other effective strategies. The result is that some more quiet, gentle followers are seldom getting up to the pista.

I wonder if there is differences between countries - in Nordics the followers are very active, asking for dances for example.

 

[pianistamediano]

After that, she successfully organized gender-balanced tango events for ten years or so.
But her new start seems to be bumpy.

As long as it is a voluntary leisure activity, everyone only takes part if the attractive aspects outweigh the repulsive ones. That goes for everyone... for men and women. So no group needs to be envied or pitied.

However, if dancing is clearly more attractive for a group, then it will also put up with more suffering and complain much more because of this combination - towards a group that doesn't care about dancing and simply stays away.
The individual can of course feel very differently, and the individual case will also be different.

Indeed; one should be free to dance with whoever one chooses; only that one's choices has consequences. In my experience though, many ladies will dance mostly (or even only) with men more/equally experienced/skilled than themselves, and of course this is their own choice, but then they can't very well turn around and complain that they're not getting as many dances as they would like because of their age/appearance/skill, since these men would naturally be in higher demand. It almost feels at times that men who are less experienced/skilled are invisible to many followers.

 

[itwillhappen]

There was time I saw men/leaders as dance slaves - even if we were dancing all the tandas it was never enough!:

Now by experts categorized as the "@JournalInTime Syndrome".

 

[itwillhappen]

but then they can't very well turn around and complain that they're not getting as many dances as they would like

The can, of course, they are women!

It almost feels at times that men who are less experienced/skilled are invisible to many followers.

You usually don't know what personal experiences are behind it.
And even if you call it arrogance, like most other thought constructs, it seems to be to the personal advantage.

 

[pianistamediano]

You usually don't know what personal experiences are behind it.
And even if you call it arrogance, like most other thought constructs, it seems to be to the personal advantage.

Indeed; so I try not to attribute any malice to them despite my observations, and maintain my belief that no one is obliged to dance with anyone.

 

[LadyLeader]

The men will dance mango (= male + tango). They will dance between themselves in both roles as in the early days of tango in Bueno Aires. They surely will dance much better than today, as they won't be distracted by the opposite sex.

They were dancing together on practicas when developing the skills for the milonga. According to the stories they had a girl in mind when they entered the practica and a few years later they were accepted and could enter the milonga and finally meet her.
I have understood that the male dance was for the practicas only and the girls got all the tandas at milongas.

When women started to lead it changed the traditional structure for milongas.

 

[LadyLeader]

Anonymous said... (Melina Sedos blogg - a comment)
And historically, the best way for women to create equality has been to start doing the job ourselves. As we learn to lead and can pick anyone we want, the men will be left to compete for the other dancers.
4 April 2011 at 05:53

It's been a dozen years since your comment. I don't have the impression that in between female leaders have had it easier than male leaders, quite the opposite.

And even if it should become normal for women to lead, they might not be able to pick anyone.
A new two-class society can also emerge, or something totally different, one will see.

It took many years for me!

Many followers think they can switch from their follower level to same leader level and beat the mangos in the process. There is kind of honey moon period now when a great number follower-leaders (here!) mostly dance with course mates. One of my follower friends is getting more rough after leading for some time.

* Followers should not give me advice. They actually don't know what is happening when you lead.
* I have decided to stop inviting followers who are not fit. A follower needs to train, not spend all time on a sofa. I want to learn, I need a follower who can something!

 

[TTanguero]

Followers should not give me advice. They actually don't know what is happening when you lead.

There's a saying in the writing world that if multiple readers tell you something doesn't work, they are almost certainly right. If they offer advice on how to fix it, they are almost certainly wrong.

I think this applies here. In classes and practicas, I ask followers for feedback on their experience. Unless they also lead themselves, I don't expect them to be able to offer useful advice on what I need to do to fix it – that's a job for my teachers.

 

[Numawan]

I have decided to stop inviting followers who are not fit. A follower needs to train, not spend all time on a sofa. I want to learn, I need a follower who can something!

Thus, you are now mostly inviting young skinny good-looking followers in sexy dresses ...

 

[LadyLeader]

There's a saying in the writing world that if multiple readers tell you something doesn't work, they are almost certainly right. If they offer advice on how to fix it, they are almost certainly wrong.

I think this applies here. In classes and practicas, I ask followers for feedback on their experience. Unless they also lead themselves, I don't expect them to be able to offer useful advice on what I need to do to fix it – that's a job for my teachers.

Exactly!
I have formed the same rule for me and I apply it also as you do.

My learning friend is not there yet and needs to be more direct on her own.