At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

[Tangogal]

I think that is also not a fact but a point of view.
But we talked more about the tangueras we danced with than the ones we didn't dance with.
What kind of facts could be relevant there?

Facts relating to dance? “She has bad balance” would be dance related “she’s a fussy eater” is both an opinion (many coeliacs are dismissed as fussy eaters) and unrelated to dance.

However if you and your buddy are sharing opinions on dancers that are unrelated to dance then the line is at the door and those opinions should be saved for a different setting.

 

[JournalInTime]

However if you and your buddy are sharing opinions on dancers that are unrelated to dance then the line is at the door and those opinions should be saved for a different setting.

Yep.

The milonga is all ears. It's a room full of people actively listening. Normally, they're actively listening to music, but believe me, they hear even stuff people believe nobody can hear over the music.

When they can't hear, the price to breach secrecy is low: a tanda with somebody who wouldn't otherwise say yes, in return for the gossip. Oh yes, that happens.

I've heard tons of gossip as bartender. More interestingly, I've been party to many people recounting what they just overheard at another table, or what they learned by bribing someone with a tanda.

Setting all questions of politeness and appropriateness aside, that makes sharing opinions on dancers at the milonga (in my view, even opinions on them as dancers) incredibly ill-advised. Do that at home, or over drinks at a place where dancers don't hang out, and accept that your conversation partner will spill it all eventually anyway.

 

[Tangogal]

Yep.

The milonga is all ears. It's a room full of people actively listening. Normally, they're actively listening to music, but believe me, they hear even stuff people believe nobody can hear over the music.

When they can't hear, the price to breach secrecy is low: a tanda with somebody who wouldn't otherwise say yes, in return for the gossip. Oh yes, that happens.

I've heard tons of gossip as bartender. More interestingly, I've been party to many people recounting what they just overheard at another table, or what they learned by bribing someone with a tanda.

Setting all questions of politeness and appropriateness aside, that makes sharing opinions on dancers at the milonga (in my view, even opinions on them as dancers) incredibly ill-advised. Do that at home, or over drinks at a place where dancers don't hang out, and accept that your conversation partner will spill it all eventually anyway.

I’m really hoping that post-pandemic these behaviours will disappear and that we’ll foster a kinder and more inclusive atmosphere.

 

[itwillhappen]

Facts relating to dance? “She has bad balance” would be dance related “she’s a fussy eater” is both an opinion (many coeliacs are dismissed as fussy eaters) and unrelated to dance.

However if you and your buddy are sharing opinions on dancers that are unrelated to dance then the line is at the door and those opinions should be saved for a different setting.

That sounds plausible, but "dance related" is a very broad field.
Whether someone has problems with closeness or alcohol is dance related.
Which cup size is perceived as comfortable would also be dance related.

And I got a bit trained in communication, I would not say "bad balance", I would express that I had to work on the balance actively.

When I think about it, at the milonga we tend not to talk about individual dancers; influencing in this way would limit our freedom of choice there. Effectively did I not dance with his partner during the pandemic private milongas and he the other way around, neither.

 

[JournalInTime]

I’m really hoping that post-pandemic these behaviours will disappear and that we’ll foster a kinder and more inclusive atmosphere.

So do I. Less idealistically, I think it'll cause a split: Those who become even more selfish because they believe they were "robbed" or something by the public-health measures brought by the pandemic; those who, during their time off, realized how much they missed dancing and to what extent these bad behaviors were ruining it, and resume dance but not the bad behaviors; and those who don't change at all. For me the question is which group is largest.

 

[itwillhappen]

So do I. Less idealistically, I think it'll cause a split: Those who become even more selfish because they believe they were "robbed" or something by the public-health measures brought by the pandemic; those who, during their time off, realized how much they missed dancing and to what extent these bad behaviors were ruining it, and resume dance but not the bad behaviors; and those who don't change at all. For me the question is which group is largest.

I - as a layperson - would think that many people were traumatized by the pandemic and the accompanying circumstances. Which means I would expect less positive effects, but not divide into "selfish" and "not selfish", everyone believes that there is good reason why they must do how they do.

 

[itwillhappen]

I’m really hoping that post-pandemic these behaviours will disappear and that we’ll foster a kinder and more inclusive atmosphere.

Inclusion is hard work. I think we all know "creeps" and "non-improvers" who sneak around at milongas and whose social behavior we do not really understand. Who exactly would like to better include those after the pandemic, e.g. by talking with them and taking classes with them?

 

[JournalInTime]

Inclusion is hard work. I think we all know "creeps" and "non-improvers" who sneak around at milongas and whose social behavior we do not really understand. Who exactly would like to better include those after the pandemic, e.g. by talking with them and taking classes with them?

Creeps are the only group I don't feel like including . . . but then, I doubt that anybody feels like including them now, nor did they before the pandemic. And creeps rarely complain about, or feel heartbroken or rejected by, not being included. They're predators anyway; they don't wait for an invitation from their prey.

By "inclusivity," I believe that most of us mean more warmness toward all levels, all partner preferences (two people of whatever gender dancing whatever role), all "styles" of tango (insert pet labels here: milonguero, salon, show, fantasia, nuevo, fusion, banana), all age groups (beyond just the young, fit, and beautiful, and the old, experienced matrons and patrons of the scene), all socioeconomic brackets (from poor students working from free lessons to wealthy festival-hoppers), all styles of dress (from sneakers and yoga clothing to elegant ball costume), and all polite motivations (technique, art, seeing friends, making friends, listening to music, whatever). That is, ditching the cliques and making "you dance some sort of tango" the sole hoop to jump through. Yes, we all know that cliques will exist anyway, but if a big enough group of people ignore them and take up enough room on the floor, they'll lose their power.

This would definitely be a good thing for the culture of tango, which has been choking on its own weird exclusivity and snobbishness in dark salons for quite some time . . . It'd also be a good thing for the business of tango, because it would mean more warm bodies in lessons and on floors. The two are linked, of course. I'd love to see tango numbers approach even 50% of, say, salsa or swing numbers in my city. Heck, I'd take 25%.

And yes, I'd totally do the work. I've already spent time running a práctica that was all levels, all partners, all styles (of tango and of music), and generally relaxed. When somebody I knew was broke showed up, I didn't charge them. Outside of that, while I'm mostly a leader who dances with women, I don't say no to being a follower or dancing with men. I don't worry much about how any of that will affect my skills (which are something I work on in private with a coach, not something I rely on partners to improve) or my "value" as a dancer (I've yet to be left sitting). It's work, sure, but not very hard work.

 

[Tangogal]

For reference “cup size” is never an appropriate topic. Whatever your opinion may be keep it to yourself.

 

[itwillhappen]

For reference “cup size” is never an appropriate topic. Whatever your opinion may be keep it to yourself.

But why? The regular contact area goes from a "milonguero belly" or the rib cage upwards.

 

[Rabbit]

For reference “cup size” is never an appropriate topic. Whatever your opinion may be keep it to yourself.

Well if a milonga only has flimsy 150 ml plastic cups, how are we supposed to stay hydrated?

 

[itwillhappen]

Creeps are the only group I don't feel like including . . . but then, I doubt that anybody feels like including them now, nor did they before the pandemic. And creeps rarely complain about, or feel heartbroken or rejected by, not being included. They're predators anyway; they don't wait for an invitation from their prey.

By "inclusivity," I believe that most of us mean more warmness toward all levels, all partner preferences (two people of whatever gender dancing whatever role), all "styles" of tango (insert pet labels here: milonguero, salon, show, fantasia, nuevo, fusion, banana), all age groups (beyond just the young, fit, and beautiful, and the old, experienced matrons and patrons of the scene), all socioeconomic brackets (from poor students working from free lessons to wealthy festival-hoppers), all styles of dress (from sneakers and yoga clothing to elegant ball costume), and all polite motivations (technique, art, seeing friends, making friends, listening to music, whatever). That is, ditching the cliques and making "you dance some sort of tango" the sole hoop to jump through. Yes, we all know that cliques will exist anyway, but if a big enough group of people ignore them and take up enough room on the floor, they'll lose their power.

This would definitely be a good thing for the culture of tango, which has been choking on its own weird exclusivity and snobbishness in dark salons for quite some time . . . It'd also be a good thing for the business of tango, because it would mean more warm bodies in lessons and on floors. The two are linked, of course. I'd love to see tango numbers approach even 50% of, say, salsa or swing numbers in my city. Heck, I'd take 25%.

And yes, I'd totally do the work. I've already spent time running a práctica that was all levels, all partners, all styles (of tango and of music), and generally relaxed. When somebody I knew was broke showed up, I didn't charge them. Outside of that, while I'm mostly a leader who dances with women, I don't say no to being a follower or dancing with men. I don't worry much about how any of that will affect my skills (which are something I work on in private with a coach, not something I rely on partners to improve) or my "value" as a dancer (I've yet to be left sitting). It's work, sure, but not very hard work.

Written great. To me, that sounds more like projecting a better world than inclusion.
Who makes an honest analysis of why the situation is the way it is? And presumably one would have to exclude those who do not really want or cannot, or they would exclude themselves and create alternatives.

In a practical way, when I entered the last milonga, a slightly drunk predator came up to me at the bar and asked, while she was getting her drink, if I was there to dance. I said "I'll dance when I like to" and the topic was done, no problem. But whose job would it be to go over to the table and explain to the three frustrated women that they should learn to lead so that they can dance together?
As in the school system, inclusion requires a lot of resources.

 

[DL]

Just read a blog post where the author was thinking about a new, better start in tango. I was amazed because I would have chosen other points for improvement than he did:

1. Dark Side Element: Over-defining what dance is.
2. Dark Side Element: Lack of shared etiquette among social dancers.
3. Dark Side Element: Creation of unisex sanitized dance.
4. Dark Side Element: Poorly trained DJ's.
5. Dark Side Element: Lack of coordination and civility among organizers.

I don't believe that this pandemic and the new start will make many things better, that many people will or can do better, that the tango world will change decisively at all. But I see my own goals more clearly and will be less distracted.

A New Tango Start

Tango for psychological wellbeing. The blog explores dance as a primal part of our humanity, as seen by children dancing naturally. Have we forgotten?

tango-therapist.blogspot.com

<sigh> Yet another self-appointed arbiter (I refer to the author of the cited blog post, not OP) of how everyone else is "doing it wrong". The points and reasoning are entirely recycled and haven't changed much over the course of at least a decade. How tiresome.

 

[lucia_l]

<sigh> Yet another self-appointed arbiter (I refer to the author of the cited blog post, not OP) of how everyone else is "doing it wrong". The points and reasoning are entirely recycled and haven't changed much over the course of at least a decade. How tiresome.

My reaction to:.

1. Dark Side Element: Over-defining what dance is. So what if some other people like standardized moves? Or to do them well? Besides which, that doesn't necessarily lead to "cookbook dance". Plus, honestly if you like wax museums, you like wax museums. Their existence doesn't prevent other museums anything else from opening and thriving. Some people doing this is not going to kill tango (or WCS, ballroom etc.)
2. Dark Side Element: Lack of shared etiquette among social dancers. Is it true there is no "shared etiquette? His gripe seems to be salsa and ballroom dancers not sticking to what he considers the "tango" rules. Evidently, those tango rules must not be "wax museum" rules! And for what it's worth: Not teaching on a social dance floor is a rule in salsa and ballroom too. Yes. Some people, usually men who learned "steps" but not "how to lead" are oblivious and break this rule. They get frustrated when a follow doesn't manage to follow the often mystery lead; so they decide to "teach" their favorite step. Right there on the dance floor. These same people do recognize the rule when others break it.
3. Dark Side Element: Creation of unisex sanitized dance. Here the author just seems to be wanting to impose "wax museum" dance! He wants dancers to stick to his preferred codified rules about what Tango "is". (I personally like the masculine/feminine look in pair dancing. But I don't see why that means I should insist there is some "rule" nor think that allowing variety at a social dance is going to kill dancing. Seriously? I can dance with my preferred partners. When I am not dancing, I can watch who I want to watch. That was usually the better dancers, but it could also be people in cool clothes and so on. There were and are always some less entertaining dancers present-- less splendid clothes, less flashy moves etc. The presence of "unisex" doesn't take away from that. )
4. Dark Side Element: Poorly trained DJ's. Well, yeah. If you run a dance or event of any sort, know what type of music you want. Try to get someone familiar with what you want. Don't allow someone you hired to run roughshod over you. Duh. Yawn.
5. Dark Side Element: Lack of coordination and civility among organizers. Really? Coordination and civility? What does this really mean? To me it sounds like either Tango therapist wants to take control or he only wants someone to create a nice calendar resource. A calendar so afficianados can easily find what's going on is certainly great. But that could exist even if organizers are 'uncivil'. I don't think a break out studio or group who wants to have an all inclusive unisex allowed milonga is going to agree to not host it just because someone else creates a calendar and got their non-inclusive "macho/macha" event entered first! So yes, it would be nice if the club organized a google calendar and crowed sourced each person entering whatever the found without a reasonable distance of the club. (Or go full-USA with a search tool for 'n miles from this zip code.) And it would be nice if each entry is informative. For this to work, you generally find one person enters stuff and makes sure it includes the location, time and so on. It doesn't occur to other users to enter. Or they enter uninformative stuff, like "milonga at Joe's Tango Shack this week!") Having a nice resource would be great. Not having it won't kill tango nor (WCS or ballroom or . . .).

 

[itwillhappen]

I have the impression that after two or three post-Covid milongas everything is back to normal, both positive and negative.
The need for security after such a crisis is higher, I think that was to be expected, and so new cliques and alliances are formed.

And the offer is already diverse - I can dance socially at open-air milongas, support the local community as a DJ, in other cities selectively invite as a lonesome cowboy.
So it doesn't impress me very much when someone naturally allows everyone all freedoms, but then adds that the tango will unfortunately die if you don't behave as intended.