At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?

opendoor said:
Anything too obvious turns you off. I was never actively looking, it paid off. I was part of the community. The girls could also see me in daylight or at private invitations. The character you meet at milongas is mostly played and fake.
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If I were a "player" rather than a monogamist, I'd be saying exactly the same thing. Plenty of women have been more than friendly with me – and several have asked whether I'm available – possibly because I'm not looking, not even a little bit. I'd never deny that one can meet people for far more than tango in the tango community! I just don't like it when that game gets in the way of my dancing, whether because the person I invite is less interested in dancing than in something else, won't accept my invitation because they know I'm unavailable for more, or can't accept my invitation because they're being cornered or babysat by some guy.

But as I've said often, I'm maybe a weirdo in my own little way, because I actually get great pleasure out of the technical and musical sides of tango (good technique, interesting vocabulary, complex musicality, etc.) – quite possibly more than I get out of the interpersonal and community facets of it, if I'm being honest. It's a bit like going to restaurants less to dine with friends and more to taste the food and wine, and to appreciate the décor and service.
 
Brummbaer said:
It's easy to forget that there's a 'social' side beyond a brief dance encounter. Strangers become friends. You can dance; you can sit out and discuss the world; you can watch and enjoy a 'performance', if those are available. But every situation differs.
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Oh, of course. It wouldn't be much of an experience if there wasn't also a social side. After a while, one does make friends, acquaintances, etc. Making friends and feeling like you're part of a community are significant elements of the dance. I didn't mean to imply that we walk in and walk out without ever trying to interact with anyone beyond the duration of the tanda.
 
opendoor said:
But there are people for whom it is the only possible way. Take me for example, I'm not athletic, old, have a time-consuming job, have no money, I'm divorced, have three children who I still support. With the alternatives you described as easier and more effective, a woman would never have taken me. But I've been very successful in tango for over 20 years, both in terms of affairs and long-term relationships. And I've found exactly the kind of women I like, slim, attractive, intellectual.
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Of course and I’m happy you were able to successfully find relationships in tango. But like you said you’ve been doing this for 20 years.
For the younger crowd I don’t see a reason to get into tango with the primary goal of trying to find a relationship since there’s so many better alternative dances/hobbies available with that goal in mind.
 
I think everyone is assuming the formal milonga dance events. Beginner lessons, even here in the desert, bring in 5 to 20 (depends on the studio) new ladies every 3 months. A leader with 9 or even 6 months of persistence looks like a Tango god to the newbies.

We even had one instructor who would say "Everyone who has dated, or is dating Evan go the right side of the room, everyone else to the left." That's a joke, but it would have been a way to split the class in half.
 
ArbeeNYC said:
Oh, of course. It wouldn't be much of an experience if there wasn't also a social side. After a while, one does make friends, acquaintances, etc. Making friends and feeling like you're part of a community are significant elements of the dance. I didn't mean to imply that we walk in and walk out without ever trying to interact with anyone beyond the duration of the tanda.
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You don't necessarily need to dance with the opposite sex to belong to a group. And so observe the restart at events with registration. Double role events by https://www.totallyintango.com/ are fully booked, with a gender ratio of 4:1 of course. That arouses the desires of other organizers, especially since they don't have to spend a lot of time looking for male leaders and having to endure the pressure of woman who follow.

The only question is whether this also works outside of a niche in the mainstream, and if so, when. I see an event in Stockholm that has been switched from gender to role balance, is now canceled due to a lack of leaders, and is to be reinvented as a double-role event next year. And also a positioned event that tries with a contingent of 15% double role dancers and is now missing 15% leaders, regardless of gender. In practice, this will also mean a gender ratio of 4:1.

So even if many followers, especially in fixed tango partnerships, learn the following role, that does not mean that events will become a sure-fire success. And tangueros with the appropriate experience recognize that they are no longer the real target group and look for alternatives.
 
itwillhappen said:
The only question is whether this also works outside of a niche in the mainstream, and if so, when. I see an event in Stockholm that has been switched from gender to role balance, is now canceled due to a lack of leaders, and is to be reinvented as a double-role event next year. And also a positioned event that tries with a contingent of 15% double role dancers and is now missing 15% leaders, regardless of gender. In practice, this will also mean a gender ratio of 4:1.
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If the problem is not enough leaders, then requiring leaders to be dual-role doesn't seem that helpful?

It could be a form of demographic targeting, of course.
 
Rabbit said:
If the problem is not enough leaders, then requiring leaders to be dual-role doesn't seem that helpful?
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The solution is just a 'workaround'. The fundamental problem is lack of male leaders. If there was 'gender balancing' then there would be less demand, apart from technical progress, to learn the other role (no issues with dancing the other role).

It's been raised previously, but the basic issue is attracting more men to dance, and to AT. That can also be as a 'social' activity, as appears to have been the historical case in BsAs.
 
Rabbit said:
If the problem is not enough leaders, then requiring leaders to be dual-role doesn't seem that helpful?
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What matters here is how it is perceived, not what is allowed on paper. Let's look at
https://www.tangokombinat.de/pequena-festivalito-milonguero
an event that years ago was switched from gender balance to role balance, a double-role event is already in the pipeline. This makes sense, since the organizers have also been teaching double-role for years, according to them with a gender ratio of 4:1.

In other words, their business model is based on women who are dissatisfied with the traditional role model. That may all be right and important, all well and good, but it's none of my business if there's a lack of leaders. So I might look for organizers whose business model is based on attracting enough experienced tangueros so that the tangueras there are satisfied.
 
itwillhappen said:
...years ago was switched from gender balance to role balance, a double-role event is already in the pipeline. This makes sense, since the organizers have also been teaching double-role for years...
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Just saw the light. I always thought the organizers were arch-conservative and backward-looking. Far from it, behind the mask of the authentic milonguero style lurked the revolution of the innovators.
 
itwillhappen said:
In other words, their business model is based on women who are dissatisfied with the traditional role model. That may all be right and important, all well and good, but it's none of my business if there's a lack of leaders.
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The business model makes sense to keep it going in the circumstances. I just doesn't bode well for the future of AT. Is it even AT? (Probably not by some definitions)
itwillhappen said:
So I might look for organizers whose business model is based on attracting enough experienced tangueros so that the tangueras there are satisfied.
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It's just short-sighted to concentrate on single gender taking both roles, with the possible exception of LGBTQxyz+++, but it may satisfy some current situation. I'd guess, from your note, that 4:1 is women:men? The problem remains of attracting more male leaders to dance, and to AT, so I'd be encouraging that model as well, rather than adjusting to survive. Otherwise it's going to be just the ashes of AT that are passed on.
 
Brummbaer said:
It's just short-sighted to concentrate on single gender taking both roles, with the possible exception of LGBTQxyz+++, but it may satisfy some current situation. I'd guess, from your note, that 4:1 is women:men? The problem remains of attracting more male leaders to dance, and to AT, so I'd be encouraging that model as well, rather than adjusting to survive. Otherwise it's going to be just the ashes of AT that are passed on.
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I see enough new dancers coming in, and without too much gender imbalance. However, in general they mostly wouldn't be interested in these encuentros. Perhaps dual role could be a survival strategy for that particular interest group.
 
Rabbit said:
I see enough new dancers coming in, and without too much gender imbalance. However, in general they mostly wouldn't be interested in these encuentros. Perhaps dual role could be a survival strategy for that particular interest group.
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Maybe. Time will tell. But it shouldn't be 'survival'.

We're seeing 'new' couples, but 'new' as in learnt some AT elsewhere. Very few singles, even some of the long-time, regular, singles have dropped off. Sure, we change partners and can accommodate some singles, but few, new, beginner couples.
 
itwillhappen said:
In other words, their business model is based on women who are dissatisfied with the traditional role model.
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opendoor said:
Just saw the light. I always thought the organizers were arch-conservative and backward-looking. Far from it, behind the mask of the authentic milonguero style lurked the revolution of the innovators.
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I think they held the Tango Queens congress in their own town (Saarbrücken) a few years back, so that does make quite a bit of sense!
 
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