Actually there often isn't a predetermined set list and the order of pieces might be changed or substitutions made. I also often play in the situation where my part is partially or fully improvised live and therefore I can react to the dancers to some extent. (This is actually one area where not having a large orchestra can be an advantage - the larger the orchestra, the more it has to stick to a written score.)
At the end of the pandemic, maybe a new start?
- Thread starter itwillhappen
- Start date
Actually there often isn't a predetermined set list and the order of pieces might be changed or substitutions made. I also often play in the situation where my part is partially or fully improvised live and therefore I can react to the dancers to some extent. (This is actually one area where not having a large orchestra can be an advantage - the larger the orchestra, the more it has to stick to a written score.)
Well the remote DJ can't have a good idea of the room acoustics, can't feel the atmosphere and energy well through a camera, can't talk to people or dance. I think it's probably just too disconnected to work.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
I like to feel the atmosphere and energy, to talk to people or dance. For me it is a luxury that I have the time to put together a preliminary playlist for my DJ sets and, above all, to listen to it in its entirety several times. At the same time, I have well-structured tango music for home use. Of course I change something if necessary, and if I had to I could also pull the tandas out of the folders during a set.
I think the problem that can arise on site is visible boredom of the DJ. And if you cover a part of hosting, that's fatal in my opinion.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
I think this difference has not been clear to me!
It has just been a kind of feeling, that milonguero dancers are limiting your freedom on the pista.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
The day the attendance drops by a performance announcement you probably get a non pierced night!
A lot of my vocabulary comes from yt videos so I am grateful there are performances and the recordings. I can look them as many times I need and the material is not limited but I can enjoy even things happened ten years ago. The only way to get me to a performance milonga is to refuse the recording and publishing. Until then I stay at home.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
The sound is now getting rougher:
Observation:
Nowadays, the majority of our students are female. Depending on the format, they constitute 60-90 % of the participants. This weekend e.g. we have a 12-hour shared private class and 7 of 8 attendees are female. In our Bootcamp last week 9 of 12 participants were women.
Why is that so?
We use role-change in all formats and do not obligate anyone to bring a partner. Those who sign up as a couple can of course dance the traditional roles, but no woman has to beg a guy to take a class with her. They prefer to show up alone or with another female partner and by that learn to lead as well. (Or improve their already very fine leading.)
I am fine with this development, but I find it very, very sad that so few guys feel the need to improve their dancing and just come when being coaxed into it by a woman. They must all be perfect dancers, I guess.
Friendly note over.
Rant on:
What is even sadder: Many of these guys complain about the inexperienced, aping, ridiculous* leading women at events. These men are unable to admit that some of the female leaders are by now quite the competition and that it has become harder to invite all the great followers, because the ladies now sometimes prefer another woman to the guy who has not left his comfort zone for the last 10 years. However: The cool and/or really experienced male dancers respect a good female leader or at least see her potential to develop through dedicated practice. Because they remember their humble beginnings.
* quotes
Now off to class.
Edit 5 hours later: Sorry that I brought that up again, but as long as these things don’t change, I have to write about them. The only alternative for me would be to stop doing tango.
Melina Sedó
Observation: Nowadays, the majority of our students are female. Depending on the format, they constitute 60-90 % of the participants. This weekend e.g. we have a 12-hour shared private class and 7 of...www.facebook.com
pianistamediano
Forum Master
It seems like the way things are going, there will only be a few men left in the events that Ms. Sedo organises. Is she doing anything to try and encourage more men to participate, or has she more or less given up on doing so? Can't really blame her, if that is the case. I shudder to imagine the men who complain about inexperienced female leaders.
But:
Is she is directing this at "forever beginners", or male leaders who she believes are not good enough? Are classes/workshops the only way to improve, or can you also improve via dancing in milongas? What makes them not good enough - the relative "level" of the followers, her opinion, their non-presence at her classes, their "level"/musicality? Is she a believer that one can and should always improve their dancing until some arbitrarily-defined level of skill? Does she want more people to take her classes?
A lot of leaders stop when they believe they are good enough, or if their personal lives do not give them enough time for regular classes, or even because they become too 'lazy'!
If they are satisfied with their dance, then if followers want them to take more classes to improve so that the followers get more enjoyable dances, is it worth it for the leaders? Which leads to the next point by one of the commenters:
This makes sense, and is targeted at those "forever beginners" to make them get less dances or work on their dance, rather than inexperienced leaders. So it is motivation indeed, and sometimes I wish the followers here were more discerning (not that I'd get more dances either way, I'm working on quite a bit right now).
I think the organizer of one of the longest-running milongas I am a (semi) regular at confided that less people were going to his milonga, and that many of the experienced followers refusing to dance with beginner leaders was one of the various reasons in reduced dancer retention. And, well, beginner followers preferred to dance with more experienced leaders (which makes sense), so the inexperienced leaders (which tend to be male) are often left to fend for themselves. Is it any surprise, then, that most guys leave the scene in the early stages?
Miradamiranda
Well-Known Member
Not sure who this quote belongs to, but frankly, I find, it’s more motivating for an aspiring lead to have the next level not TOO far beyond reach. I’m one of those ‘generous’ followers who will dance with leads below my own level. Not as pity dances, but to invest in future partners and because I find I can still get a satisfactory connection with partners who might not necessarily be THAT skilled yet. As long as they have the important basics down. In the past, if I danced with someone not so good, it would be disastrous for the rest of my evening, because I’d look bad. But now I’ve reached a level where a) I can still appear that I have a certain level even if my partner is not that experienced, b) I can make the lead both look and feel good about himself. And if I’m not playing Ms Snooty, these aspiring leads have something more concrete to work towards than some vague feeling of ‘I’m not good enough, but I don’t know how to get better’. Also, from a selfish point of view, I get to help shape them as dancers.
pianistamediano
Forum Master
Just for clarification's sake, "forever beginners" are distinct from inexperienced/new leaders. "Forever beginners" are the experienced (?) leads who have been dancing for at least a few years, but choose to stagnate at some level (just above a beginner, I guess?) and still dance with others who are willing to dance with them.
And it's great that you're dancing with less experienced leaders! God knows we need more followers like you to get more leaders to stay.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Yes, very important: first consider whether you are meant. And even then one should consider whether it makes sense to create emotional combat readiness and to march forward. In the comments there are some people I personally know and respect.Is she is directing this at "forever beginners", or male leaders who she believes are not good enough? Are classes/workshops the only way to improve, or can you also improve via dancing in milongas? What makes them not good enough - the relative "level" of the followers, her opinion, their non-presence at her classes, their "level"/musicality? Is she a believer that one can and should always improve their dancing until some arbitrarily-defined level of skill? Does she want more people to take her classes?
A lot of leaders stop when they believe they are good enough, or if their personal lives do not give them enough time for regular classes, or even because they become too 'lazy'!
If they are satisfied with their dance, then if followers want them to take more classes to improve so that the followers get more enjoyable dances, is it worth it for the leaders?
"Cui bono?" I'm basically satisfied with the way I dance. And only very few dance partners can influence this directly. Everyone else has a choice whether or not to dance with me, just like I have a choice. And they can implement a long chain of strategic decisions, in the end the choice remains the same.
That's the fundamental issue: lack of male leaders in some locales, and how to encourage more males to learn AT.
Friday's milonga: deficit of female followers.
Sunday's milonga: deficit of male leaders.
For a single event there are other factors which can be blamed (location & travel requirements, time of day, cost, host, music, population, perception, other events, etc), but if it's a trend then it's concerning. At the moment, from hearsay, it seems to may be becoming a trend, and females are solving it for themselves.
For the AT teacher a simple solution is to cater for customer demands.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Yes, she did, she was one of the first organizers of gender balanced events in Europe. But now, in recent years, she has switched her local teaching business to
But at events for tango travel squads, changing the target group is more difficult. At least half of the participants are couples, and if the man complains, then the woman - in her limited feminine solidarity - has complained to him before. And since she announced a double-role event for December, the old target group now realizes that they are the old target group.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
It was as early as 2010 I first time reacted against Melinas blogpost and attitude towards male leaders. Tangotherapist and I were the only leaders doing so. I am not surprised about her ending up to the female group situation - it was actually stated in the comments.
Anonymous said...
And historically, the best way for women to create equality has been to start doing the job ourselves. As we learn to lead and can pick anyone we want, the men will be left to compete for the other dancers.
4 April 2011 at 05:53
Here link to her blog posting:
Good news. Really.
Tango and life seen through the eyes of Melina Sedo.
melinas-two-cent.blogspot.com
I clearly said in the dance context and further that usually women make the choice. Their choice ime is heavily weighted in the favour of dancing close cutting across cultural and geographical barriers. In the beginner class my observation is that it is men who have more trepidation of holding a woman close.
There are many dangerous incidents that take place in the world. Mass shootings are frequent in USA. That doesn’t stop people from going to work, churches, schools or malls.
Obviously a dance context, but other events cause concern in any context. Yes, allow women to make the choice.... except some (male) AT dancers would insist that they have to dance close for it to be a real, worthwhile, tanda. Certainly more experienced followers will dance close, but I've also been told by followers that they avoid certain males (not for dance quality), and some moves with some males. Of course, it's not just the dance, it's going home afterwards where someone might believe that hold signified some special interest (and it's not just the obvious creeps who are around).
I'd agree with that from my experience.
I'd say that recent events regarding the police in the UK (and indeed the US, and not just that recent publicised event) have lost them a lot of trust. If you can't trust the police....
But to dance, just got to respect what your dance partner wants.
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