Bad habits?

[Greybeard]

Who created the forward, side, backwards, choreography of the giro?

This has a lot of correspondence to the "grapevine" in Foxtrot. Weight on my left I step across and forward with my right leading the follow to step back with her left. Then we both step side ( leader with left, follower with right) and continue our rotation so I step back and she steps forward. (then side and repeat)

Doing it circular in the restricted space of a milonga required changing so both partners used the same foot and steps.

 

[Brummbaer]

Surely the step pattern is derived from folk dance. Someone just curved it into a circle

Maybe, but I'd guess you'd need to be able to pivot (floor & shoes) first. I'd guess early giros (molinete, rueda, etc) were walked rather than pivoted.

This has a lot of correspondence to the "grapevine"

Yes, it does. And of course there's some reconstructed early tango showing walking around each other (and that's also done with giros).

I could also speculate on some children's game on those tiled courtyards (baldosa).

But, if you're not concerned about 'styles', why get into the origins of steps for today's dance? I'd put the 'bad habit' as leading a pivot in unsuitable footwear on an unsuitable floor.

A 'bad habit' in a giro would be pivoting without collecting first.

 

[Brummbaer]

Who created the forward, side, backwards, choreography of the giro?

A story I was once told (which I don't believe) is that Gerardo Portalea...

And after a bit of googling - this:
The Decalogue of the Villa Urquiza Dancer”, MIGUEL A. ZOTTO tells us:

In the first place, Villa Urquiza's style of dancing was very characteristic of the great dancers who made history, from “Negro” Cacho Lavandina; one of the 4 dancers together with Petróleo who in the year ´39 ´40 revolutionized the dance incorporating the turns with the coils, carried, missteps, countersteps; that were previously unknown. One of the transcendental events occurred specifically in a construction site in Parque Chas; when Petróleo arrived to meet Cacho, who was a mason. One day he raised a bucket of material in the washer and as the peon did not receive the bucket, Cacho began to turn with the rope, Carlitos Petroleo who came walking amazed says: - What are you doing?, Cacho says: - Imagine if the woman starts to revolve around the man????, The two went to Cacho's house, which had a tin roof. So, they hung the rope from a ceiling brace and began practicing the turns. And there they begin to create what today are the GIROS in Tango. This fact occurred no less than in Villa Urquiza.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

They would be better off saying these are two different ways of doing the giro. One is in close embrace without opening up the and the position of lead and follow is as what they go on to describe. The other is opening up the embrace to allow the position of lead and follow to create more room for taking back bigger step.

I don't follow their teaching but what I think they are trying to get at is simply that in one of the more traditional styles of AT, you do not ever relax the abrazo, and in the other you do or can (sometimes mistakenly labeled Villa Urquiza). You find this very loose embrace in many of the videos of older dancers in certain places in B.A.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

And after a bit of googling - this:
The Decalogue of the Villa Urquiza Dancer”, MIGUEL A. ZOTTO tells us:

In the first place, Villa Urquiza's style of dancing was very characteristic of the great dancers who made history, from “Negro” Cacho Lavandina; one of the 4 dancers together with Petróleo who in the year ´39 ´40 revolutionized the dance incorporating the turns with the coils, carried, missteps, countersteps; that were previously unknown. One of the transcendental events occurred specifically in a construction site in Parque Chas; when Petróleo arrived to meet Cacho, who was a mason. One day he raised a bucket of material in the washer and as the peon did not receive the bucket, Cacho began to turn with the rope, Carlitos Petroleo who came walking amazed says: - What are you doing?, Cacho says: - Imagine if the woman starts to revolve around the man????, The two went to Cacho's house, which had a tin roof. So, they hung the rope from a ceiling brace and began practicing the turns. And there they begin to create what today are the GIROS in Tango. This fact occurred no less than in Villa Urquiza.

It's a great story whether it's true or not.

 

[opendoor]

...coils, carried, missteps, countersteps...

Thanks for sharing. But what are these? Perhaps auto-translations?

 

[Brummbaer]

Thanks for sharing. But what are these? Perhaps auto-translations?

Google's auto-translations (los enrosques, llevadas, traspiés, contrapasos). The link will take you to the original Spanish with further details.

 

[Tangogal]

We’ve drifted quite a bit off topic! So taking giro as my inspiration I’d like to propose that choreography is not a bad habit!

There is a lot to be said for learning moves or choreography in the beginning and using them as a tool to get dancing at a social dance. Several teachers I know still use this approach; they teach six or seven sequences to beginners so that they can dance as soon as possible.

As a follower I can confirm that even the most technical dancers still have a repertoire of moves to fall back on and rarely make up a tanda on the fly.

 

[itwillhappen]

There is a lot to be said for learning moves or choreography in the beginning and using them as a tool to get dancing at a social dance. Several teachers I know still use this approach; they teach six or seven sequences to beginners so that they can dance as soon as possible.

In terms of leaders, this may or may not be true, depending on their goals. Many will never dance at a milonga in the end.
But the follwers simply learn nothing of value, more likely bad habits.

 

[Brummbaer]

In terms of leaders, this may or may not be true, depending on their goals. Many will never dance at a milonga in the end.
But the follwers simply learn nothing of value, more likely bad habits.

I'd disagree a little in both cases. Choreographed sequences have some value initially. The issue is when people don't progress from that. IF they don't give up learning technique because they're swamped remembering sequences it's a reasonable teaching approach. It keeps the interest and a feeling of achievement instead of not dancing because you're doing technique. I'd be uncertain whether they become 'good' faster than learning technique and elements, but it retains interest and commitment. You need that nowadays.

The initial aim of most is to be able to go dancing.

 

[JournalInTime]

The initial aim of most is to be able to go dancing.

Yes, exactly.

I've yet to meet anybody who takes tango lessons for any other ultimate reason – though there's often a qualifier such as "go dancing as a couple activity with my life partner," "go dancing to meet people," or "go dancing because my doctor said it's the sort of light exercise I need." The existence of a qualifier doesn't lessen the desire to be able to dance at the milonga.

At the same time, I have mixed feelings about sequences and patterns. You can embed basic movement concepts and technique in those, giving creative people a framework around which they can improvise. Since not everybody is good at improvisation, they also give less-creative people something to do. That said . . .

The way that lessons focus on sequences is troublesome, because that sends the message that the dance is the steps. Which, if your aim is to go dancing, is patently untrue. At my weekly práctica, I see four things that need fixing in all the lower-level dancers before they could dance at the milonga, none of which are "not enough steps":

Partner-gazing. Staring into the eyes/at the face of their partner, rather than over their partner's shoulder to see what's going on in their immediate surroundings. I'm sure it relieves anxiety to look at your lover and not some tall, overzealous leader throwing their follower's heels around . . . but until you're looking out for that, you're not ready for the milonga. You'll also develop weird postural issues. All the sequences in the world won't help solve this one.

Foot-gazing. Staring at their and/or their partner's feet. This creates the same blindness as the previous issue. The head is also heavy, so tipping it downward ruins your axis, making many steps not work as well or at all. And the head takes up space, so tilting it into your partner's space ruins their axis and means your couple needs more space on the crowded dance floor. Sequences won't help solve this one, either – in fact, they make it worse, because people think their feet have to do exactly the same thing as the teacher's, and grow obsessed with checking for that.

Parking. That is, not advancing down the floor. A good sequence can help with this, but most of those taught are relatively static, and people aren't shown how to add a forward component to all the elements in order to dance it while advancing. The milonga is not forgiving of those who park. Also, people aren't shown how to curve, pause, or otherwise modify the sequence, so when space gets unexpectedly tight at the milonga, those reliant on the sequence freeze up.

Arm-cranking. The nasty leader habit of making the follower do what's intended using the arms without torso indication or push into the floor. Sequences make this worse, because the leader has a roadmap of what they want, and if they're not getting that, they don't think "Oh, well" and work with what they do get – they try to force the sequence to happen. The ability to go "Oh, well" and work with reality is essential at the milonga.

I think it would be helpful to start total beginners out in the abrazo with heads upright and looking over their partner's shoulder. Actually tell them to look over their partner's shoulder, not at their partner or at anybody's feet. Then instruct them to stay moving down the floor even if all they do is walk. Also warn them not to force any movements that don't come naturally, and to roll with what does happen naturally, even if it wasn't intended.

Once they have that working, they can learn sequences and such as "cheat codes" for improvisation. It's putting sequences in right away that's troublesome, because they replace all those other things that are more important if you want to "go dancing" rather than "learn some moves."

 

[fiesta0618]

@JournalInTime "Learn to walk first," explicitly presented as such, is an interesting idea. I like it.

The main thing I wonder is if it would satisfy new learners. As I see it, one of the other principal reasons for the early focus on sequences is that when you have low skill, it is difficult (impossible, even) to appreciate the depth and nuance of a simple movement. So for beginners and casual hobbyists, much of the excitement of motion comes from step variety. It's a cheap thrill, but an easily accessible one.

I, too, have mixed feelings about the common patterns of early dance pedagogy, obviously.

 

[JournalInTime]

The main thing I wonder is if it would satisfy new learners.

No. That's why classes teach steps.

So for beginners and casual hobbyists, much of the excitement of motion comes from step variety. It's a cheap thrill, but an easily accessible one.

Yes. That's a thrill you can get almost right away in the classroom or at a práctica, where you're judged more on how well you replicate something that anything else – and where there aren't couples brushing you on all sides. It's reasonable to sell that if your goal is to make money, not grow the tango community.

Problems arise when people get to the "go dancing" part and realize that almost nothing they've done so far is useful for that. They have steps. They have patterns. They might even have technique and – if they listen – musicality. But they don't have the ability to shape and adapt all movements in real time, to cope with interruptions (be they excusable or rude), or to respond to a partner who misreads them.

More people quit tango after their first or second milonga than before they ever go to the milonga, and this is why. You can blame bad floorcraft from others at the milonga for that, but that wouldn't discourage people if they were equipped to handle it. Sequences aren't the necessary equipment.

Ultimately, dance classes teach how to dance but not how to go dancing. Those are two different, weakly related things. Schools rely on a steady stream of newcomers who don't know any better . . . The higher-level classes are progressively less-and-less well attended – yes, in part because some people feel they've learned enough, but mostly because the former newcomers got discouraged at the milonga and simply quit.

We have other threads for bringing more people to tango, but I think classes that are 50/50 "how to dance" and "how to go dancing" would be better than the 90/10 model we have right now.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

As a follower I can confirm that even the most technical dancers still have a repertoire of moves to fall back on and rarely make up a tanda on the fly.

But even using movements in different sequences or with different rhythms or inflections = making up a tanda on the fly.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

The main thing I wonder is if it would satisfy new learners. As I see it, one of the other principal reasons for the early focus on sequences is that when you have low skill, it is difficult (impossible, even) to appreciate the depth and nuance of a simple movement.

This is true but new learners don't know what they need in order to dance well or with conviction. What I would like to see is more emphasis on technique at every level of the learning process: from the walk, to the sidestep, to the forward ocho, to the elements of the giro, and so on. Not just the sequence or pattern but it's individual components. I have had many many classes where we did nothing but and I'm sure so have many of you (like walking round a chair to practice a giro). And, most importantly, how to embrace properly and move properly in that embrace. If your core fundamentals are solid, it's easier to add on interesting bits and pieces later on.