No, people have a right to dress however they choose, and good dancing is just good dancing, but that's a different question. I am talking about the "all sorts of fiddling around".
Cabeceo and Other "Rules"
- Thread starter Gssh
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No, people have a right to dress however they choose, and good dancing is just good dancing, but that's a different question. I am talking about the "all sorts of fiddling around".
itwillhappen
Forum Master
Likely a misunderstanding: for me these fiddlings are all sorts of paradas, barridas, enrosques, openings of the embrace, that might stop a pleasant flow.
I suppose a tanguera licking my ear does want to get hooked up, precise hook me up ... but I've got no experience with such situations, so I don't need a solution yet.
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
Those messages are clearly different:
"Licking my earlobe" has absolutely nothing to do with tango. I've run into variations on the theme three times for sure, with tangueras whose actions and movements bore no relation to the embrace, the music, the lead, or any other part of the dance, and were accompanied by eye contact and words that erased all doubt. All of that would be troublemaking instigated by the tanguera.
Embracing, moving, and breathing smoothly, in a way respectful of the music and the dance partnership, has everything to do with the technical aspects of tango. Being nicely dressed has everything to do with the social side of tango (or any social activity). If some guy reads any part of that as troublemaking, teasing, or hunting, that's on him . . . if he used that to justify pressing the tanguera for more than tango, he'd be the troublemaker.
Which isn't to say you can't get involved with someone whose tango makes you feel like you'd be a great match at other things. You can . . . I'm with somebody like that. But you take it elsewhere – you don't pursue it at the milonga, because that would make you as bad as the earlobe-licker. It isn't exactly hard to exchange cell numbers or Facebook identities or whatever in 5 seconds, and arrange a non-tango meetup to see whether there's chemistry off the dance floor.
All of which said, I'm aware that tango is full of introverts who can socialize only with the aid of the structure of tango and the milonga, which provides a ready-made common interest, reason to get close, excuse not to talk much, and something calming to focus on. It's possible that such people find it harder to see the difference between those messages, and would never say, "Hey, we connected pretty good out there. I'm john.smith.666 on Facebook – friend me and we can get in touch later!" (about 1/4 of all my contacts and online friends are tangueras, so clearly this isn't something I have a problem with).
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opendoor
Forum Master
I've been there for a long time and my peer group is not prudish, but they always dig after the dance, never right on the dance floor.
opendoor
Forum Master
In no way. The flow does not rank above the music. The music rules the style. And when it says parada or barrida, you should do so. Only robots ignore the music.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Agreed.
—
Lots of classic tango movements exist to express pauses in the music or in the ronda. Not using them seems bizarre. And all can be placed into the flow as well . . .
You can just park in place and hold a parada while your partner stork-steps over it for an hour, but even if there's no pause, you can use it to emphasize your current step and mark your next step (as in a cadena de paradas), in effect turning it into a "sacada before the fact" in flowing movement.
You can stop, place a static foot, and generate a barrida, but it's more agreeable to place a moving foot against the follower's moving foot anywhere in the dance to generate the illusion of a sweep, with no effect on the follower or the flow. (Indeed, actual sweeps the follower feels as pushes are kind of a bad idea.)
You can just stop to "do an enrosque," but even if there's no pause, you can step into it, spin, and step out of it fluidly as you move down the floor. It's just a leader ornament on a turn that could as easily be walked with or without sacadas, with no effect on the follower or the flow whichever one you choose. (Well, a slow follower might not be able to keep up, but that'll be a problem in any fast circular movement.)
And none of these require opening the abrazo, just a little flexibility.
I think avoiding these movements is less about interrupting the flow and more about insisting on presenting such a movement as a set piece rather than as an ornament incidental to walking. Opening the abrazo to do so seems symptomatic of that: "Let me just get out of the way here to show off my k3wl m00vs." This is why memorized patterns bug me so much: Do or do not – there is no think.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
Also, before someone who knows me rolls their eyes too hard: Yes, I do that as well. Just not all the time.
There are places in dramatic tangos where it's totally excusable to lead a parada with an elastic arm that lets your partner show off over there, and then to close back up to create the illusion of "pulling" them back into your embrace. Especially if the singer is talking about the vicissitudes of love.
There are places in dramatic tangos where it's fine for barridas to be more sudden. "We've stopped . . . no, here we go." Especially if there's a sharp pause on the precipice of a rapid reprise.
There are places in dramatic tangos where being a whirlwind of enrosques and lapices and patadas is fine in a turn. Especially in El huracán.
Dramatic tangos suggest these things. Dancing them without is reducing contrast. As my coach likes to say, each era, each orquesta, and each tango demands a different posture and vocabulary to stay fresh.
Also, I've never met the follower who objected to paradas and barridas specifically. These things, and moves like the bicicleta, are a form of play. Unless you feel tango needs to be earnestly serious at all times, they're a good idea . . . leaving them out reduces the contrast between serious and playful tangos.
It's only "fiddling" if you do the movement with the wrong music (Pugliese-worthy drama in a charming old OTV tango, Rodriguez-esque playfulness in a serious Biagi tango), or if you do it so badly that your follower gets annoyed. But we have other threads for music and practice.
Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I realize my "trundler" comment a while back was really talking about this.
in my experience the introverts by their very nature are far less likely to be an offender in a milonga-like settings. A few who may be, are too clumsy since they aren’t used to it.
itwillhappen
Forum Master
The street sings a different song to everyone, depending on whether you're on a motorcycle or in a family limousine with sleeping children.
And the music says something different to everyone. You can see that in tango if you turn off the sound in a milonga video.
Mr. Moustachio
Active Member
I dress the way I do because the women whom I dance with said they liked it. They would dance with me even if I dressed differently, but it boosts my ego to know that they like the way I look and feel.
LadyLeader
Forum Master
Today I would write - Men are afraid of being marginalized and isolated. In other words, socially killed!
We still need equality for the genders but the strategies tested so far have not been all good to create the balance intended. If you are interested in this kind of evolution check information from Finland and other Nordic countries because the process started there early.
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
Being former military, and currently a 'professional' (high school) baseball umpire, I learn the 'rules' for anything I do, and knew there are rules and etiquette in tango that I needed to learn and understand. So back when I embarked on learning tango, I studied the rules and etiquette before my first beginner lesson.
I have done my research to understand those rules and the etiquette so not to over-step any of boundaries or make a fool of myself. What I'm finding is, the rules for cabeceo seem to be a little 'relaxed' and don't appear to be as strict as they are in BA or other tango communities and it seems there's a mix of cabeceo and outright 'asking' someone verbally to dance.
One of the other 'unwritten rules' I saw was about arriving at the milonga and how the first and last tanda are (generally) reserved for couples, which I believe are good, but something my very experienced GF didn't seem to know about, along with a few regarding the cabeceo, which I found quite odd.
We attended a milonga a couple months ago and my GF danced the last tanda (before we left) with an old friend who she has known for many years. It wasn't an issue for me because I have befriended this leader, but I casually mentioned that I thought the 'first and last tanda' were reserved for couples, and she said she never heard of that rule.
Then we attended a 'special milonga' the end of last month (with 'live' music) at a studio that's not our 'home' and the host, who's also another old friend of my GF, came by before she and I danced our first tanda and he actually asked permission from me to dance with my GF. To be cordial to this host, I said 'okay' (but with a smile told him I understood the 'first and last tanda' rule, since he clearly indicated in his invitations that codigo's will be enforced). Again, later I mentioned this to my GF and she said she never heard of that before.
This past New Years weekend was a pretty big tango festivilito hosted by our local (home) studio here in San Diego (as it is every year). Friday (NYE) was a big milonga that we didn't attend due to limited space because it wasn't held at the usual venue (local hotel), but Saturday and Sunday we attended an intermediate/adv class, followed by a milonga. After the class on Saturday (New Years Day), we went upstairs to the studio, which already had a lot of dancers, and we had to find a place to sit and put our stuff. Since it was crowded, I told my GF I'd run out to my car (which was parked right outside the back door to the studio) and lock the things we didn't need inside. It was a quick trip, but I ran into our host and proceeded to 'pay' her for the weekend of tango (lessons and milonga) for me and my GF, which only took a about 5 or so minutes.
When I walked back into the studio, my GF was already out on the dance floor dancing with some (unknown) out-of-town leader. She finished the tanda, and when she returned to where we were seated, I mentioned the 'first and last tanda' thing again, and she said it took me too long, and that she already turned down 2 other requests (before finally saying 'yes').
Apparently, this leader actually sat down next to her while I was gone, was talking to another lady to his right, then turned to my GF sitting on his left and verbally asked her to dance, which she felt obligated to do since she didn't want to come off as a tango snob. I told her that for him to corner her, and verbally 'ask' was something he shouldn't be doing. I also mentioned that she should have told him (and the others) that she was waiting for me.
So, a couple things of note; First, I'm still unclear about this 'first and last tanda' rule, which I believe should be in place, and if so well understood by my GF, and whether it's genuine. And secondly, that she made a big error on the use (or failure to use) the cabeceo by that rude leader.
As for the first 'rule', she and I had a discussed it, and she passed it off (again). Her reaction was, that she'd be 'okay' if things were turned around (me dancing a first tanda with another follower before dancing with her), something I'm going to want clarified with her going forward.
My gut tells me this was her just being defensive or making excuses, and really wouldn't want me dancing first and last with another follower. I also said I didn't think I had to be on-my-guard when we walk into a milonga to 'keep the hounds at bay' until we danced (broken the ice). Her response was for "us to communicate" (in the future). And my response was; I didn't think I had to communicate that to her, and I wouldn't do those things to her, and briefly told her she did a disservice to the two she turned down before dancing with that leader.
As for the second issue about turning down two other leaders, then accepting one from that other leader, from what I've read, out of respect to the guys she turned down, she should have been 'out-of-commission' for the rest of the tanda. I always encourage my GF to dance with others in milongas (after we danced first), but dancing the first tanda of 2022 with a stranger was disappointing, disrespectful, and I told her so.
Am I correct on any of this or am I being unreasonable?
I have done my research to understand those rules and the etiquette so not to over-step any of boundaries or make a fool of myself. What I'm finding is, the rules for cabeceo seem to be a little 'relaxed' and don't appear to be as strict as they are in BA or other tango communities and it seems there's a mix of cabeceo and outright 'asking' someone verbally to dance.
One of the other 'unwritten rules' I saw was about arriving at the milonga and how the first and last tanda are (generally) reserved for couples, which I believe are good, but something my very experienced GF didn't seem to know about, along with a few regarding the cabeceo, which I found quite odd.
We attended a milonga a couple months ago and my GF danced the last tanda (before we left) with an old friend who she has known for many years. It wasn't an issue for me because I have befriended this leader, but I casually mentioned that I thought the 'first and last tanda' were reserved for couples, and she said she never heard of that rule.
Then we attended a 'special milonga' the end of last month (with 'live' music) at a studio that's not our 'home' and the host, who's also another old friend of my GF, came by before she and I danced our first tanda and he actually asked permission from me to dance with my GF. To be cordial to this host, I said 'okay' (but with a smile told him I understood the 'first and last tanda' rule, since he clearly indicated in his invitations that codigo's will be enforced). Again, later I mentioned this to my GF and she said she never heard of that before.
This past New Years weekend was a pretty big tango festivilito hosted by our local (home) studio here in San Diego (as it is every year). Friday (NYE) was a big milonga that we didn't attend due to limited space because it wasn't held at the usual venue (local hotel), but Saturday and Sunday we attended an intermediate/adv class, followed by a milonga. After the class on Saturday (New Years Day), we went upstairs to the studio, which already had a lot of dancers, and we had to find a place to sit and put our stuff. Since it was crowded, I told my GF I'd run out to my car (which was parked right outside the back door to the studio) and lock the things we didn't need inside. It was a quick trip, but I ran into our host and proceeded to 'pay' her for the weekend of tango (lessons and milonga) for me and my GF, which only took a about 5 or so minutes.
When I walked back into the studio, my GF was already out on the dance floor dancing with some (unknown) out-of-town leader. She finished the tanda, and when she returned to where we were seated, I mentioned the 'first and last tanda' thing again, and she said it took me too long, and that she already turned down 2 other requests (before finally saying 'yes').
Apparently, this leader actually sat down next to her while I was gone, was talking to another lady to his right, then turned to my GF sitting on his left and verbally asked her to dance, which she felt obligated to do since she didn't want to come off as a tango snob. I told her that for him to corner her, and verbally 'ask' was something he shouldn't be doing. I also mentioned that she should have told him (and the others) that she was waiting for me.
So, a couple things of note; First, I'm still unclear about this 'first and last tanda' rule, which I believe should be in place, and if so well understood by my GF, and whether it's genuine. And secondly, that she made a big error on the use (or failure to use) the cabeceo by that rude leader.
As for the first 'rule', she and I had a discussed it, and she passed it off (again). Her reaction was, that she'd be 'okay' if things were turned around (me dancing a first tanda with another follower before dancing with her), something I'm going to want clarified with her going forward.
My gut tells me this was her just being defensive or making excuses, and really wouldn't want me dancing first and last with another follower. I also said I didn't think I had to be on-my-guard when we walk into a milonga to 'keep the hounds at bay' until we danced (broken the ice). Her response was for "us to communicate" (in the future). And my response was; I didn't think I had to communicate that to her, and I wouldn't do those things to her, and briefly told her she did a disservice to the two she turned down before dancing with that leader.
As for the second issue about turning down two other leaders, then accepting one from that other leader, from what I've read, out of respect to the guys she turned down, she should have been 'out-of-commission' for the rest of the tanda. I always encourage my GF to dance with others in milongas (after we danced first), but dancing the first tanda of 2022 with a stranger was disappointing, disrespectful, and I told her so.
Am I correct on any of this or am I being unreasonable?
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Naddrin Kentlar
Active Member
Not everything is set in stone, especially on the first and last tanda. This should be discussed previously and it depends from couple to couple. I dance the first tanda with my SO if either of us feels particularly rusty that moment or of we're the strangers at a event. For me and her it's more of an warmup dance and to get in the mood.
If we happen to arrive separately then when the latter one arrives we get the warmup dance then.
The reason behind is that you don't want to do the first dance with someone that you've never danced before as they might get an inaccurate first impression on your dancing. So it's either your SO or someone you know.
Some people might use the first tanda to make a public statement that: "hey ! he/she is mine", but in my opinion if this is needed so one feels secure in a relationship then it's a "them" problem, not mine.
If we happen to arrive separately then when the latter one arrives we get the warmup dance then.
The reason behind is that you don't want to do the first dance with someone that you've never danced before as they might get an inaccurate first impression on your dancing. So it's either your SO or someone you know.
Some people might use the first tanda to make a public statement that: "hey ! he/she is mine", but in my opinion if this is needed so one feels secure in a relationship then it's a "them" problem, not mine.
Tango Newbie
Well-Known Member
We already talked about that "rule" and from my perspective, although she didn't know it, was in agreement it is probably a good one (for us).
I will agree to some extent, but I like the idea as a warm-up, particularly me, and dance with her the steps we've been working on together and before I dance with others. I need more practice than she does obviosly.
One thing my GF mentioned on a few occasions was how she went for years without a partner, how pleased she is that I've taken-up tango and will be her partner, and that people will know we came together and leave together...as a couple.
Setting the stage, both me and my GF were some of the best dressed on Saturday and when a few of us from the int/adv class went upstairs for the milonga, things were in full swing and the L-F ratio was about 50/50, and it seems the crowd was feisty. My GF was in front of me a few steps, when we entered the ballroom, some very attractive ladies sitting in a row were looking and smiling in my direction. My GF mentioned it when we sat for a moment before I ran off to the parking lot to put our stuff in my car. As I said before, when I got back, the 'hound-dogs' had already swooped on my GF so I waited patiently until she was finished. And no, I never ended up dancing with any of those followers we saw coming in, and just danced with 2 others later in the evening.
When we go into our next milonga or tango event, I'll keep it simple and will ask my GF what her expectations are going to be on the rules and etiquette; accepting 'verbal' requests versus cabeceos, first and last, and about how many dances we dance together. Right now I think she gets my point about first and last tanda going to us (as it should be), not with other people. And yes, I'm 'old fashioned' about things like this, or what's the point in doing this as a....couple.
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