Cabeceo and Other "Rules"

[opendoor]

..there are opportunities for up close and personal touching that creates.. attraction and desire, whereas in all those other..

As a visual type, I think dancing is turning off. Compared to salsa. Tango is for me a prudish dance.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Compared to salsa. Tango is for me a prudish dance.

You hit that nail on the head. In fact, it seems some dance styles look down on other styles, especially with all the rules (codigos) that exist in tango, and the nature of the dance.
And it also seem a lot more 'inappropriate' things (i.e. groping) goes on in Salsa.

 

[Rabbit]

From my limited experience, i dont equate dance with personal interest. Ive had several waiters on regular milongas take interest in me just because i smiled at them every time i bought a drink. I was just being polite and in a good mood, no conversation, no contact. On the other hand, a lot of people i dance with for years never felt the need to suggest anything inappropriate. If there is some rule or reason to it, i dont know what it is.

I think it has to do with receiving more than one is normally used to. We dance and share pleasurable embraces so regularly that it doesn't have sexual implications.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

You can dance all night with an attractive person and feel nothing.

Exactly! And you can walk a dog (or do any other random mundane activity) with a physically unattractive person, without ever touching that person, and still feel “waves of attraction and desire.” The determining factor for me is the extent of our intellectual connection. Is he intelligent? Funny? Quick-witted & enjoys puns? Does he NOT take himself too seriously? (That one is extremely important.) Does he “get” my (admittedly-offbeat) sense of humor? Does he recognize the obscure literary and musical references I randomly toss into conversations? Is he nice to waiters? Does he like dogs?

The first time I danced AT was with a gorgeous professional instructor. He was Colombian, extremely physically attractive by just about anyone’s standards of beauty, incredibly talented, kind, pleasant, and a good teacher. And there were zero sparks (much less waves) of attraction on either side. I could see objectively that there were many things that might motivate someone to “invite him for coffee,” but none of them applied to me. We had no intellectual connection…very little in common…and thus no chemistry.

Physical closeness, intimate embrace, a prolonged tanda, etc. - no matter how good someone looks or smells or dances - does not automatically and necessarily lead to attraction and desire. Human nature has evolved beyond that, thank goodness.

 

[opendoor]

You hit that nail on the head..

You misunderstood me, Tango Newbie. Sorry, my fault, I didn't make myself clear. "Groping" involves tactile stimuli. You can find bad manners in any style. I meant the visual representation and the general atmosphere in the salsa community.

 

[Tangogal]

couple things about that; in both my military and professional careers, where people spend countless hours near and around each other, there still doesn't seem to be much 'relations' going on, especially in light of accusations of harassment that is now prevalent. Are there co-workers who engage in relationships? Of course, but they're the exception, not the rule.

Were these environments mostly single sex? Were most of your peers already married/in relationships? Were they all over 30 or so and not interested in flirting and dating for fun? My current work environment is not conducive to romance since all the women are in serious relationships/married.

“In fact, my GF thinks all leaders think like she does; that they're only in it for the dancing and have no romantic desires for her or other followers whatsoever.”

Is your girlfriend perhaps trying to minimise your concerns? Is she somewhat naïve? Could she be missing the, obvious to other people, signs?

Groping, grooming and other inappropriate behaviour does happen at tango just as it happens at salsa or other places. Perhaps the smaller scale of tango events where your GF dances has led to an insular community where these things were nipped in the bud?

Normal romantic relationships can also begin at tango. Off the top of my head I can think of four marriages that began at tango. My tango scene is pretty small.

 

[Tangogal]

The first and last tanda “rule” is just a societal norm in partner dancing.

I’d be shocked if my mother danced with another man before my father at a wedding (they’re in their seventies and that’s the only time they dance). It’s just what normal couples do. My partner would go to the bar and secure a seat for us if I had to go park the car. He definitely wouldn’t start dancing. However if we were arriving separately (say after work) we’d dance before the other arrived but we’d still dance together as early as possible. Again that’s just the societal norm.

The last dance is generally with the person you’re going home with. Think about the song “Save the Last Dance for Me”. Obviously in a small society this can be a bit tongue-in-cheek for example I am obviously not going home with a man old enough to be my grandfather or with my friend’s young son while my partner looks on. We have an unwritten rule that if a teacher asks we dance with them but otherwise it’s “will we have another before we go?”

I think it’s fair to speak up if it bothers you that your girlfriend doesn’t save you these dances. Perhaps she grew up in a time when there was no partner dancing.

 

[JournalInTime]

The first and last tanda “rule” is just a societal norm in partner dancing.

I think it’s fair to speak up if it bothers you that your girlfriend doesn’t save you these dances. Perhaps she grew up in a time when there was no partner dancing.

This is an important point. It isn't just about when ("a time") but also where (a place), and the social context of that time and place.

I'm in my mid 50s. Where I grew up and formed my social identity through the late 1970s and the 1980s – a smallish and somewhat rough Canadian port city whose main industries were, at the time, tourism and the navy – social dance didn't exist. Well, it did, but among people my teenage self saw as fantastically old (in their late 70s and onward), largely in retirement homes. My parents didn't do it; my grandparents didn't, either, because it was something "people in those homes" did.

On the other hand, I went out a lot. I danced with big mobs of punk rockers and new wave freaks for years. Later, I hung out in the university nightclub scene some. In those contexts, dancing was a melee with no clear partner involved, and not closely related to anything to do with couples. Really, it was a thing to do in gangs whilst drinking too much.

So, I grew up with no sense of the norms for social dance . . . everything I know about that, I've learned since commencing tango in 2013. The "first and last tanda rule" isn't one of those things.

In my couple, the major rule is "save the valses." I can dance my first tanda with some random woman while my partner checks out the shoe boutique. Because my partner has chronic illnesses that mean she gets tired and decides to sit and chat with friends long before she wants to leave, I usually dance my last tanda with some random woman, too. That lack of energy also means I dance most milonga tandas with other people. But valses are strictly between her and me, and dancing a vals with someone else can be a problem.

Again that’s just the societal norm.

In a specific context, of course. Not globally, in every little city and town.

 

[Rabbit]

The first and last tanda “rule” is just a societal norm in partner dancing.

Many people don't agree that it should be a rule, so it's really more of a private agreement between partners.

 

[TTanguero]

Are there co-workers who engage in relationships? Of course, but they're the exception, not the rule.

AIUI, your work background is in the military, which is an environment with relatively few women compared to just about any other workplace.

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[Greybeard]

I never heard of first and last tandas being a rule. I thought of it as an agreement between the couple. Or maybe an expectation would be a better word.

another old friend of my GF, came by before she and I danced our first tanda and he actually asked permission from me to dance with my GF.

If you wanted the first tanda with her, why weren't you on the floor already? Maybe I'm reading something into this, but it did not appear to me that you had just arrived; I got the impression that you two were sitting listening to the music.

Cabeceo is not usually used when sitting at the same table with someone, even in BA.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Were these environments mostly single sex?

In both professions, men and women co-exist. Obviously the military has less females, but in my civilian career, it was almost 50/50, and in both cases (mil / civ) there is a huge emphasis on sexual harassment (prevention). However, there's a mixture of married vs single, with the military have more single members and they both have a potential for romantic attractions, but more-so in my civilian occupation.

In fact, my GF thinks all leaders think like she does; that they're only in it for the dancing and have no romantic desires for her or other followers whatsoever.”

Is your girlfriend perhaps trying to minimise your concerns? Is she somewhat naïve? Could she be missing the, obvious to other people, signs?

Yes, she's actually a small town girl who has traveled the world, but it's clear she's pretty naïve and misses the obvious (intentions of others). But, it seems she's also trying to minimize concerns she thinks "I might have" since her non-dancing ex-husband didn't like her dancing tango, along with other non-dancing boyfriends she had after him who were against her dancing tango. Again, I don't have problems with her dancing with other people, but I have basically 2 expectations; the first and last tanda go to us, and that I get the lion's share of dances with my GF (particularly before her feet start hurting).
Although I enjoy dancing tango, I don't "love" the music that's akin to a Latin version of our country music with broken hearts, lost love, and sorrow, so I find other dancing more uplifting and fun.

I do know she started dancing with a BF, and they broke up (for unknown reasons) and had another BF/dance partner who broke up with her for another dancer.

Perhaps the smaller scale of tango events where your GF dances has led to an insular community where these things were nipped in the bud?

My GF actually started tango in a small town in Northern CA, so they had a pretty small community there, so I suspect things were nipped in the bud (in her local studio). But, she has traveled to BA and danced in many other cities around the US and abroad, so I suspect there may have been a "grope or two" in her experiences that she missed.

Normal romantic relationships can also begin at tango. Off the top of my head I can think of four marriages that began at tango. My tango scene is pretty small.

Yes, it seems those who are married in our scene met their spouse dancing tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

So back when I embarked on learning tango, I studied the rules and etiquette before my first beginner lesson.

So, the issue is that, verbal rules aren't worth the paper they're written on (misquoting Samuel Goldwyn). It's a convention, not universally accepted, or even known. Etiquette in your locale most likely differs from etiquette in Europe or Asia. It's even different at other milongas. No rules posted. No enforcement.

So, the codigos, as an extrapolation from what someone thought was a good idea in BsAs may be meaningless (as noted in other threads). It's a myth we construct about [better] past times in another place. Maybe some got written up in a book or post that you read?

If you travel to other countries then you observe and learn the 'rules' people apply there.

It's that old film theme of respect. You disrespectin' me? And what do you do about it? Knives out? Fume? Never attend again?

AT is more than just a dance. It's about socialising within the norms (codigos) of that locale. It's about men (as leaders) asking women (as followers) (or vice-versa) to dance - in an intimate connection in a managed environment. Like any other situation (work, study, exercise, gym, shopping) more can develop, but for most it's just about the dance - but some will always try to explore. Is it different from the woman away on business alone in a hotel bar getting hit on? Or the guy in a relationship, but away on business, doing it?

If you've got a secure relationship, it's not a problem. Someone requests a dance with my wife as soon as we arrive? So what? He's a jerk if he knows us, or an ignorant novice if not. Or maybe the last dance (unknowingly)? Well, we're not going to let it spoil our lives.

 

[Tango Newbie]

The first and last tanda “rule” is just a societal norm in partner dancing.

I’d be shocked if my mother danced with another man before my father at a wedding (they’re in their seventies and that’s the only time they dance). It’s just what normal couples do. My partner would go to the bar and secure a seat for us if I had to go park the car. He definitely wouldn’t start dancing. However if we were arriving separately (say after work) we’d dance before the other arrived but we’d still dance together as early as possible. Again that’s just the societal norm.

I agree with all of that, and it should be the norm. That's not only classy, but respectful to the relationship.
What works for others does not work for me. If we're going out dancing, I'm getting the first and last dance, period. Plus, I would not jump in and start dancing, especially with strangers, before we had the chance to dance together. For those who don't care, that's them.

Think about the song “Save the Last Dance for Me”. Obviously in a small society this can be a bit tongue-in-cheek for example I am obviously not going home with a man old enough to be my grandfather or with my friend’s young son while my partner looks on. We have an unwritten rule that if a teacher asks we dance with them but otherwise it’s “will we have another before we go?”

I'm totally with you on that!

I think it’s fair to speak up if it bothers you that your girlfriend doesn’t save you these dances. Perhaps she grew up in a time when there was no partner dancing.

I briefly mentioned the first and last tanda thing the first time we encountered it (she danced with an old-time friend). Then danced the first tanda with the host of a milonga we went to recently (and I was somewhat 'okay' with it), and then this past weekend she danced the first dance with an out-of-town stranger who was attending the tango festival at hosted at our studio who sat next to her and verbally requested to dance with her after she had turned two others down (all while I ran out to the car just outside the studio to lock our stuff inside). So, I made it abundantly clear to her that I wasn't too happy about that. And being an 'experienced' dancer (which she is), I was shocked that she didn't know anything about the codigos, cabeceo, or remembered what we talked about the first and last tanda being reserved for us.

 

[JournalInTime]

Are there co-workers who engage in relationships? Of course, but they're the exception, not the rule.

AIUI, your work background is in the military, which is an environment with relatively few women compared to just about any other workplace.

Yeah, we went around on this at least once before in the past. I forget where, because we're terrible for staying on-topic here.

But the short version is that military, law-enforcement, top-tier corporate, scholastic, and STEM occupations seem to lean away from accepting relationships at work . . . but those are collectively not very many people. At least in my country, that's at most 40% of people (and that statistic counts plenty of support workers and laborers who aren't subject to the same professional codes as their high-paid bosses). So, at least three people in every five work in areas where they can do whatever the heck they want with coworkers, as long as they get their work done and respect the laws on public decency.

Thinking about my closest friends, pretty much all met their partners at work. This includes professors and other professors, dentists and hygienists, doctors and other doctors, and everybody who works in retail or customer service. I do know a lot of coupled-up tango dancers, but very few met through tango (I'm having a hard time counting past four or five couples).

This is why I feel "dance is special, and more prone to romance than work" is doubtful. My suspicion is that office and water-cooler romances are the norm, whereas dance partnerships that turn romantic are outliers. Of course, popular media want us to believe the opposite . . . film and TV constantly romanticize dance. But my experience is that dance isn't very romantic in real life.

My own real-life experience is that the most hormone-filled, relationship-heavy environment was academia. We literally had couples naked behind conference-room doors more than a few times. The taboo there was professor-student; profs, postdocs, visiting researchers, support staff, etc. could do whatever they liked if it didn't involve students.