Cabeceo and Other "Rules"

[WhiskeyPapa]

it is the leaders responsibility to know which followers would enjoy dancing with them, and where it is a followers responsibility to more or less obviously let leaders know that they would like to dance with them,

This hits it on the head. I know my place; I know whom I can ask and if she declines is a matter of not wanting to in that moment… because we dance regularly.

where things get interesting is when I decide to cabeceo a woman a little out of my league because I’ve been working hard. I think it shouldn’t be awful for her. After surprise, she usually accepts. If the dance goes well (and experienced followers know how to make clear you can ask again at the next milonga), she gets added to my dance card for the future. But a great deal of thought precedes that cabeceo (I have to be feeling good and know the music well). If she declines, I give it six months to ask again.

 

[tangoing]

I'm not "looking too much into this" you mention. I'm talking about those unwritten 'rules and good etiquette' in tango, one of which (for me) is the 'first and last tanda' that are (supposedly) reserved for couples, and that good tangueros and tangueras should know, or heard about, with the other being the use (or lack) of the cabeceo.

Yeah except it's tricky to cabaceo someone who's sitting right next to you. You expect the leader who was next to her to get up from his seat, walk across the room, and then cabaceo and walk back (whether accepted or rejected), its still an awkward sequence of events. So I don't think he was 'cornering' her like you said. He might have had the chance to cabaceo'd before he sat down but maybe he just wasn't thinking about that at the time or some other plausible scenario.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Yeah except it's tricky to cabaceo someone who's sitting right next to you. You expect the leader who was next to her to get up from his seat, walk across the room, and then cabaceo and walk back (whether accepted or rejected), its still an awkward sequence of events. So I don't think he was 'cornering' her like you said. He might have had the chance to cabaceo'd before he sat down but maybe he just wasn't thinking about that at the time or some other plausible scenario.

Possibly. I suspect people, including this fellow, saw us arrive together (as a couple), and that we hadn't danced yet or been seen on the dance floor (not a big venue). That said, those other leaders may have seen me dart out the door and thought; "here's my chance to dance with her..." (since she was the best dressed, attractive 'peacock' in the room).

 

[Brummbaer]

I'm only trying to "play by the unwritten rules" and follow "good etiquette" (including the cabeceo), things I'm now finding aren't universally accepted or enforced.

I asked previously Whose codigos?.

If the rules are unwritten, not everyone will be in on the 'secret knowledge'. OK, sometimes some are written at some places, and some are sometimes enforced, but mostly not. It's part of the atavistic myth we create around milongas, or indeed any social occasion.

It's like checking Covid vaccination status. Some say they'll do it, but I've only heard of one who actually does. Simply because no one wants the fuss of enforcing - and then, maybe, rejecting someone.

We're not in a 1940's Argentinian culture. It's evolved. Wives (partners now) are not a husband's property where permission to associate with needs to be sought. They can stand and think for themselves, and don't need 'permission'. In some places it's more 'refined'; in others it's the 'Wild West'. Like laws, everyone has to agree that they're right and we should abide by them. Problem is that some are contentious. We're no better, but we certainly see that in the US at the moment.

In any relationship you make up your rules between you and your partner - but don't expect everyone to recognise them.

 

[Tango Newbie]

I asked previously Whose codigos?.

Let me explain. When I looked into tango I saw 'codigos' mentioned and discussed, including things like the direction of the ronda, behavior, cabeceo, etc. I also saw on a milonga event invitation (locally) that "codigos would be enforced" it further supported my understanding that there are 'rules' (codigos) that exist and are somewhat uniform, including the use of the cabeceo, throughout tango communities.

Now I'm learning they're not universal, or not even used at most milongas. That said, again, it's actually a little relief for me that they're not really used. But, I will say, the one host actually did follow-through on using the 'codigos' he was enforcing at his milonga.

I've read a book on tango, and here is an example of what I've also read:

Tango Etiquette (los códigos)

Tango for psychological wellbeing. The blog explores dance as a primal part of our humanity, as seen by children dancing naturally. Have we forgotten?

tango-therapist.blogspot.com

In any relationship you make up your rules between you and your partner - but don't expect everyone to recognise them.

Again, another piece of etiquette that I'm finding isn't typically enforced, but it seems some here agree that it's good practice (and respectful to a dance partner), something I whole-heartedly agree with. For me (and I suspect others will agree), it's a sad day when my SO is more interested in 'joining the ronda' before we do together, or doesn't want to close-out an evening at a milonga in each other's arms. We're more interested in enjoying this as a couple, and not for satisfying any individualistic desires (needs).

 

[Tangogal]

This hits it on the head. I know my place; I know whom I can ask and if she declines is a matter of not wanting to in that moment… because we dance regularly.

where things get interesting is when I decide to cabeceo a woman a little out of my league because I’ve been working hard. I think it shouldn’t be awful for her. After surprise, she usually accepts. If the dance goes well (and experienced followers know how to make clear you can ask again at the next milonga), she gets added to my dance card for the future. But a great deal of thought precedes that cabeceo (I have to be feeling good and know the music well). If she declines, I give it six months to ask again.

Wow you put a lot of pressure on yourself! As a follower: if I know and like you I will usually accept your cabeceo. I’ll delight in your improvements and look forward to you showing off the new thing you’ve been working on. You don’t have to be “good enough”. The exceptions are leaders that genuinely hurt me physically usually because they don’t know their own strength.

Reasons I’ve refused a dance in the past that have nothing to do with the leader. 1. I just vomited 2. I’m exhausted and done dancing but waiting for my ride home 3. I’m sick with something non-contagious (like anaemia or an asthma flare) and thought I’d come for the atmosphere 4. My heel came off and I didn’t bring spare shoes 5. My trouser seam split (I tied a scarf around my thigh that night) 6. The zip on my dress broke and is being held together with a safety pin 7. My bra broke and the wires are about to puncture a lung 8. The previous leader stomped all over my feet and now I’ve lost half a toenail and the bruises are starting to show (I could only wear trainers for a week after that until the swelling went down).
Edit: I forgot 9. I’m relieving the host for a while so they can have a few dances.

 

[Steve Pastor]

I'm going to stand with Tango Newbie on this one.
I hope that the two of you can have understandings between you, whether they they are based on BA milonga customs or your personal preferences; understandings that you both honor. You are being cautioned about being "controlling," but I think you, like me, would not be satisfied without there being mutually agreed upon boundaries in a relationship.

Your girlfriend is unaware of the mirada / cabeceo? It's unfortunate that she learned the dance but none of the culture. And for all who think the culture and history is unimportant, I'll point to the story of "swing" dancing which move further and further from its roots as the decades went by. Then there was a revival and everything old was new again and many people became very interested in where and how the dance was created and changed over the years.

And I wonder if your GF's experience agrees with reports that it is most often the less skilled dancers who do things like sit down beside a woman uninvited, then ask her to dance.

 

[Tango Newbie]

Wow you put a lot of pressure on yourself! As a follower: if I know and like you I will usually accept your cabeceo. I’ll delight in your improvements and look forward to you showing off the new thing you’ve been working on. You don’t have to be “good enough”. The exceptions are leaders that genuinely hurt me physically usually because they don’t know their own strength.

Your words are quite reassuring. Thanks! I will say I've received compliments from a couple DJ's, instructors, and other dancers, specifically on my frame, embrace (well, sometimes I've been told to lower my left arm a tad bit), and my basic 8 walking skills. Plus I can execute a few cool steps (ochos, ocho cortados, ocho cortado americanos, molinetes, lapiz's, secadas, etc.), so I suppose just about most followers would take a chance with me!

Aside from learning and working on all the 'general' things, knowing our axis, and being exposed to more complicated steps, I'm working on those subtle 'inputs', but using enough force to get the direction I want from the followers.

 

[Tango Newbie]

I'm going to stand with Tango Newbie on this one.
I hope that the two of you can have understandings between you, whether they they are based on BA milonga customs or your personal preferences; understandings that you both honor. You are being cautioned about being "controlling," but I think you, like me, would not be satisfied without there being mutually agreed upon boundaries in a relationship.

Your girlfriend is unaware of the mirada / cabeceo? It's unfortunate that she learned the dance but none of the culture. And for all who think the culture and history is unimportant, I'll point to the story of "swing" dancing which move further and further from its roots as the decades went by. Then there was a revival and everything old was new again and many people became very interested in where and how the dance was created and changed over the years.

And I wonder if your GF's experience agrees with reports that it is most often the less skilled dancers who do things like sit down beside a woman uninvited, then ask her to dance.

Wow, I couldn't have said it better. Thanks.

You're absolutely right about my GF "not understanding" some of those basic "rules" and "etiquette" that even I, as a beginner, knew, which was quite odd, considering tango has such a rich history, and my GF has even been to BA, the "mecca of tango" as a 'tango tourist' on three separate occasions.

And yes, I just want mutually agreed-upon boundaries, especially now that I've been drawn into the tango orbit. I'm a guy who doesn't want to come off as rude, unsophisticated, and I definitely don't want to be drawn into any tango drama either. Just wanting to do the right thing here!

No, my GF didn't seem to know about those "less skilled" dancers sitting down next to a potential tanda partner. Additionally, I didn't think I (as a 'beginner') had to tell her! And yes, that guy didn't seem very talented either and stuck to very simple things (that my GF 'embellished' a little). I will give him credit for at least having an adequate frame.

The other 'disappointing' thing, that others couldn't care less about, is that being a pretty sentimental guy, I naturally expected the first tanda of 2022 to go to us, and her not with some 'stranger', and sort of expected her to think this too (but wasn't thinking about it at the moment). I will say, afterwards she felt bad about that. In fact, she believes our 'first and last tanda' is important (ref. Ch 2 in the link below that I showed my GF a few weeks ago):

Tango Etiquette (los códigos)

Tango for psychological wellbeing. The blog explores dance as a primal part of our humanity, as seen by children dancing naturally. Have we forgotten?

tango-therapist.blogspot.com

 

[Tangogal]

I don’t think we have to LARP Golden Era Buenos Aires. Some codigas are worth keeping but others (like asking the man for permission to dance with his wife) are not.

I’m not sure where we all stand on changing shoes at the table for example. Out of necessity I mostly change at the table but a separate cloakroom to change out of my outerwear and shoes would be preferable.

I think there’s a happy medium between appreciation the culture and codes and moving forward with the times.

 

[Gssh]

[/QUOTE]

So I don't think he was 'cornering' her like you said.

I am pretty sure he was cornering her - there are quite a few selfish people, and even more people who are not reflecting on what is actually happening and who do this either intentionally or habitually because it is gets results. I am one of the people who is all for the "codigos", and this is one example why. If there is nothing you can point someone to who is either a bad actor or has low EQ then it is difficult for them to learn how to create a comfortable and safe environment. The codigos do things, and i absolutely agree that the things they do are usually pointless to people who are minimally socially aware (and/or who are not letting other things override their social awareness), but they are very useful to show people where boundaries are, and to teach people how to set boundaries and how to notice when boundaries are violated.

I once wrote a long (and somewhat tongue-in-cheek) post about how the traditional milonga is designed around making it impossible to pick up girls who don't want to be picked up (if she doesn't actively look for you you can't cabeceo, the conventions of within tanda small talk prohibit asking for names or other identifying information, after the dance it not possible to accompany her because the seating is separated), and all the "modern improvements" that are suggested usually also make it easier for people to use more or less subtle social pressure.

 

[Tango Newbie]

We're not in a 1940's Argentinian culture. It's evolved. Wives (partners now) are not a husband's property where permission to associate with needs to be sought. They can stand and think for themselves, and don't need 'permission'. In some places it's more 'refined'; in others it's the 'Wild West'. Like laws, everyone has to agree that they're right and we should abide by them. Problem is that some are contentious. We're no better, but we certainly see that in the US at the moment.

I suspect you saw that link I posted previous that had lots of valuable information particularly on those "rules" I speak about, so I'm trying to understand; do experienced dancers and hosts of milongas "cherry-pick" those "rules" (and "etiquette") they believe-in, abide by, or enforce? Or are things loosey-goosey like Salsa or club dancing? It seems they are.

I get a lot of personal opinions from people in this forum, especially from "seasoned veterans" who don't seem to know, remember, understand, or accept the rules and etiquette that I thought were universal and made tango unique and set it apart from other dance styles, that are now being randomly accepted by dancers and not enforced (or expected) by milonga hosts.

I thought most dancers, particularly those "visitors" to a local scene, would know to use the cabeceo, or at least not plop-down next to a potential follower, put her on the spot, and expect her to accept a dance with them (a stranger) like that rude Russian did this past weekend. And I suspect this is much more common than what happened in this situation.

Like I said, earlier, we had just arrived as a couple, hadn't danced yet, and I'm sure plenty of people saw us, and when I left to drop our things off in my car parked just outside the back door, there were two other "leaders" who approached my GF and verbally asked for a dance before that Russian guy did.

I didn't expect the tango festivalito (or any tango event for that matter) would be like a crowded club where a man has to "guard" his date before the hound-dogs swoop in and try to take her to the dance floor.

Very odd stuff, and I'm not putting any blame on the venue. I will say I've learned another valuable lesson about tango that has opened my eyes, particularly about "leaders" in tango who don't follow rules (which seems to be all too common). I don't want to be like them.

 

[Brummbaer]

so I'm trying to understand; do experienced dancers and hosts of milongas "cherry-pick" those "rules" (and "etiquette") they believe-in, abide by, or enforce?

As I've said, it all depends where you are and how AT has evolved there. There's also the question: What's a milonga?

We used to go to a 'tango room' at the local jive meeting. Typically a brief lesson beforehand for jivers run by someone who's well versed in the codigos and AT music. There's a milonga afterwards. No cortinas. Probably 2 dances in the same vein. Mix of old school, nuevo, alternative - tango, vals, milonga. No particular order. No cabeceo - you go and ask, or are asked. No 'pairs' as such, except maybe if you're known. Dress code - leisurely, some dancers are going on to the WCS later. There are novices there unfamiliar with most concepts of a milonga let alone that there's tango, vals and milonga. Overtake? Block? Explain some move from the lesson? No rules, no enforcement.

There's an organised 'special' milonga with some visiting AT maestros. Tables set out. Lighting. Sound system. Drinks and nibbles. Even somewhere to change. Dress code - smart. Occasional visitor in Gardel look. Tango outfits and shoes for sale. Wow - you can even see to cabeceo. Music with cortinas arranged in good tanda groups. All very respectful and respectable. People sometimes stand and chat. Any crashes on the floor and everyone involved apologises (well, you do, don't you?). No rules displayed (it's just a useful hall that's been rented). Enforcement - not required. At an almost similar, but more relaxed venue, a lounge lizard turns up who says he's travelling through. In conversation he starts to mention about picking up women and enjoying holding them. The organiser requests he leave and not return. Another similar milonga and an elderly, but allegedly experienced dancer, criticises one of the followers. He's asked to leave and gets banned for several months.

The tango group monthly milonga. Lights are dimmed so that you can't see people well. There's a few seats around the edge but the room structure requires everyone to be squashed in at one end - about 5 tables deep. Cabeceo? Not to the back of the head! You either ask if you've been sat down talking or resting, or maybe you do cabeceo someone as you walk back to the seating (but it's in a crowd of people leaving and going back to tables). There's the follower on her own because her partner is away on business (or vice-versa). She goes to talk with a couple she knows and gets invited to dance. No idea whether or not that couple she was talking to have danced together yet. Then, of course, there's the couple locked in slow paradas holding up the ronda; or, of course similar but elsewhere, the younger guy racing round the ronda overtaking and undertaking. Rules - well, there's lanes on the ronda and everyone is polite. Enforcement? What?

Rare, public, outside milonga. There's passers-by joining in. There's a couple with a baby strapped on (forgot, that's also happened at the monthly milonga a few months after someone gave birth). There's a couple trying to fathom out the 8CB. Cabeceo - maybe with an experienced dancer, but then there's no cortinas.

Similar setup in another country - Leader gets asked for permission to dance with accompanying follower. Another country - there's a couples section and a solo section of seating. It appears partners in the couples section get asked if they're known. Another country - the (leader) host comes over to talk and invites my wife for a tanda. Sometime later, after other tandas and dances together and with others (cabeceo), his partner (follower) comes over and invites me. Another country - it's a dedicated 'studio' with a floor and bar, but seating is sofas in groups, or armchairs, or some chairs. Cabeceo - how? Music is mainly alternative (OMG, what do you dance to that one?).

Sometimes someone tries to arrange it like they think it used to be back in the golden age. The expectations are printed on the invite (i.e. cabeceo/mirada - but that's it). If the venue is appropriate, it works; if not, people resort to their own arrangements to get a dance (usually later if frustration at crowding and seating sets in).

The basic codigo is respect and politeness to everyone. First and last tanda for couples is nice, but it's not universal, or maybe it's just what you arrange yourselves. Or maybe what happens in the barrio where there's a couples section.

Funny thing about politeness - my wife couldn't cope with someone from the southern US referring to her continually as ma'am. But, hey, it's another culture.

 

[opendoor]

..do experienced dancers and hosts.. "cherry-pick" those "rules" ..abide ..enforce .. loosey-goosey like Salsa.... "seasoned veterans" who don't seem to ..accept the rules and etiquette that I thought were universal

Hello, "universal" is a problematic word, Tango Newbie , because it depends on ideology, the practiced sub-style of tango, and the respective philosophy. I now do accept the role of the "seasoned veteran", I'm in my early 60s and started tangoing in 1999 and I will now give you information on how the scene has changed over the past few years:

When I started tango, these rules didn't exist. But everyone interested in the history and culture knew that they once existed. In practice, however, they played no role. The rules were not missed, everything went well without them. The tango scene changed around 2010 (the change may have occurred earlier or later depending on the region). There were groups among the dancers who referred to the rules and demanded them. From then on, this group organized so-called "traditional" milongas. For us "seasoned veterans" "traditionally" was something newfangled. After a few years the tango teachers and organizers realized that these backward-looking dancers were potential customers and slowly introduced these rules as well. (Another aspect of this change was that only certain pieces of music were played and DJs began talking about danceable and un-danceable music.)
You can also put it more drastically, the introduction of the rules was a shift to the right. Advocates and followers of the new rules appeared to be rather adapted and insecure people. And what was most noticeable, the majority of them were bad or untalented dancers. With the introduction of the codigos, however, their disadvantage was no longer noticeable, because from then on mastering the floorcraft no longer played a decisive role. Please don't expect me to stand up for the codigos. They poisoned the climate, impaired dancing and drove the ease out of tango. Mediocrity had triumphed.

 

[Naddrin Kentlar]

With the introduction of the codigos, however, their disadvantage was no longer noticeable, because from then on mastering the floorcraft no longer played a decisive role. Please don't expect me to stand up for the codigos. They poisoned the climate, impaired dancing and drove the ease out of tango. Mediocrity had triumphed.

This is very interesting. Can you please detail more on what rules were not followed before 2010 ? Cabeceo ? Counter clockwise movement on the Ronda ?

"mastering the floorcraft no longer played a decisive role." - what do you understand by mastering the floorcraft ? - play a decisive role in what ? Being accepted by followers when inviting?