Changing the embrace..pleasing or not?

Mladenac said:
This is quite poor dance.
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etc, etc... didn't want to grab every critical post, but there were others. I'm not just picking on Mladenac...

One thing I've learned by participating on Dance Forums... I will never, EVER post a video of myself to you-tube, nor allow anyone else to do so!

Ya know, people, sometimes STUDENTS do demos and they should be commended for how far they've come and having the nerve to actually dance with everyone watching them!

Not saying that is the case with this particular couple... I've never heard of them. But considering that everyone has a damn video camera these days, and everything that ever happens gets recorded and posted to you tube, I imagine one can find numerous examples of people dancing in front of other people who are NOT experienced seasoned pros, no matter how many people at the milonga might happen to be watching the demo. If people in my local tango scene did demos at our milongas, WE might be enthusiastic about the progress the dancers have made because we know them, but strangers viewing it as "instructional" could find PLENTY wrong with it... and that goes for even some of our more experienced participants, including myself!

Maybe we should limit our criticisms of videos to well known performers who make a living dancing/performing and therefore are more appropriate subjects of critical analysis? Its one thing to use a video to start a discussion of concepts.. its quite another to simply critique the dancers themselves.

Maybe I'm just ignorant of the European dance scene, but it seems to me that there are plenty of world famous professional performers we could use for discussion, rather than risk posting some struggling less experienced couple to an international forum for dissection of their every move.

One day it may be a video of one of YOU that finds its way here and gets ripped to shreds. :eyebrow:
 
Mario7 said:
how would I get a woman to lean forward when she offers me an upright embrace? ... if she offers me an upright embrace, what can I do? Is there a way to tip her into leaning forward?
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Yes, in fact there is a way.. .Unfortunately, I only learned about it as a follower, so I can't really explain it well.

In a lesson I had with a fairly well known leader when I was first learning changing embrace, I asked him how I am supposed to know when to move in and out of the embrace or how to position myself and when to lean, etc, etc.. he explained that if I have to guess, then the leader isn't doing it right.

In the same context, he worked with varying the amount of leaning I was doing when we were in CE. The way he did it, it just naturally resulted in my giving him more of my weight, just as I would do in a volcada. We got in position to start, we made a connection, then he continued to press forward in a way that I knew not to step (keeping my weight over my standing foot so that I didn't try to change weight onto a free leg moving forward) but moved his own feet back which increased the amount of shared weight as well as the distance between our feet. (but not as much as one would normally do for a volcada) Then he danced without letting that relationship changed. Voila! Shared weight dancing!

I imagine you have not learned to lead a volcada and so this whole concept might be new and difficult for you. But some of our more experienced leaders might be able to help explain it.

The one thing that you MUST do when trying to dance this way is project your chest forward so that the follower has some support for her own. If she has to nest into a collapsed chest, she's likely to find it uncomfortable (or downright painful) in her back and resist.
 
Exactly, Zoopsia.
One who is living in a glass house shall not throw stones.
I so not wanted the thread go the way of picking that couple's dancing apart.
The initial question seemed to be: does the change of the embrace affect the quality of the dance. It does not necessarily require derogatory comments.
 
Lilly_of_the_valley said:
The initial question seemed to be: does the change of the embrace affect the quality of the dance.
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And I think the answer to that question is: changing the embrace frequently and smoothly is an advanced skill. Anything done during the dance that is not refined yet will affect the quality of the dance, but how else are you going to learn?

So no matter what the anwer is in theory, in practice changing the embrace will likely affect the quality until one is good at it. Then it won't. Sorta like most everything else. :D
 
Zoopsia59 said:
... Maybe we should limit our criticisms of videos to well known performers who make a living dancing/performing and therefore are more appropriate subjects of critical analysis? Its one thing to use a video to start a discussion of concepts.. its quite another to simply critique the dancers themselves.
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I agree completely. Many of the dancers we see on YouTube are not "real" performers, no matter how well they dance. They might have been at a milonga one evening and the host asked them to show everyone a dance, and they said "well, okay". Many of the dances are not choreographies, not rehearsed, just an improvisation in the moment, for fun.
 
Zoopsia59 said:
Yes, in fact there is a way.. .Unfortunately, I only learned about it as a follower, so I can't really explain it well.

In a lesson I had with a fairly well known leader when I was first learning changing embrace, I asked him how I am supposed to know when to move in and out of the embrace or how to position myself and when to lean, etc, etc.. he explained that if I have to guess, then the leader isn't doing it right.

In the same context, he worked with varying the amount of leaning I was doing when we were in CE. The way he did it, it just naturally resulted in my giving him more of my weight, just as I would do in a volcada. We got in position to start, we made a connection, then he continued to press forward in a way that I knew not to step (keeping my weight over my standing foot so that I didn't try to change weight onto a free leg moving forward) but moved his own feet back which increased the amount of shared weight as well as the distance between our feet. (but not as much as one would normally do for a volcada) Then he danced without letting that relationship changed. Voila! Shared weight dancing!

I imagine you have not learned to lead a volcada and so this whole concept might be new and difficult for you. But some of our more experienced leaders might be able to help explain it.

The one thing that you MUST do when trying to dance this way is project your chest forward so that the follower has some support for her own. If she has to nest into a collapsed chest, she's likely to find it uncomfortable (or downright painful) in her back and resist.
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yes, this is well taken. I asked the question for this kind of reinforcement. I've seen several videos of oldster Milongueros tipping their partener towards them as they began the walk forward,,and yes it is like a half done volcada for lack of a better description...I will try this Tuesday night.. I didn't last week 'cause it took me a day to realize what was going wrong. Thanks for the details and the reinforcement.:ladiesma:
I wasn't sure that I was seeing it correctly until you so well described it. One of my early giro 'problems' was that I would suspend the woman and do a calasita instead of a giro, and so this tilting her a little should not be a rocket science project...I hope. We'll see..
 
borisvian13 said:
I'm afraid you're right. And that IS the problem:)

As someone mentioned Susana Miller again, I chanced on a youtube video of her recently. I hope it shows adequately her competency as a tango dancer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8Any40gQTc&playnext_from=TL&videos=anaU2Jcvh_4


I'll keep my opinion about it for myself as some might find it a bit too extreme:)
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I really feel out of place when someone can put down a dance that I see as divine. As I'm sure others felt when I did the same to their divinities.
This repeated experience is why I feel that there are two distinct dances going on...traditional that I see as profound and modern that I see as show-biz. I wish that there were two forums for two different dances and their aficionados... and all the blah blah blah for the integration of the two is just that; blah blah blah.:rolleyes:
 
Mario7 said:
This repeated experience is why I feel that there are two distinct dances going on...traditional that I see as profound and modern that I see as show-biz. I wish that there were two forums for two different dances and their aficionados...
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Or, you can just ignore the threads that are for a style you don't like, just as those who are only interested in OE nuevo might ignore threads that delve into the "CE milonguero-specific" mechanics that don't apply to what they want to dance.

It really ISN"T necessary to compare the 2 or eliminate one of them from discussion. If the ballroom folder can deal with having Fox Trot and Viennese Waltz, or standard and smooth, both showing up on threads, then I think we here at the AT folder can handle this OK. If you aren't interested in a topic or style, just pass it by. Why does it have to disappear altogether?
 
borisvian13 said:
I'm afraid you're right. And that IS the problem...
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I'm not clear about what you mean. The problem is that tango is taught in various ways?

Susana Miller teaches in Buenos Aires. She tries to teach what she learned from the milongueros, from whom she learned to dance. She brought Cacho Dante to the US once as an example of what she was teaching, and he has been back a few times. He taught the same thing she taught. There is a distinct lean in what they were teaching.

I'm not saying there is a BIG lean. That would be tiresome, awkward and unnecessary. There is a shared balance, which is quite pleasurable and intimate. Anybody who prefers to dance without leaning into their partner should do so. To each their own.
 
AndaBien said:
Anybody who prefers to dance without leaning into their partner should do so. To each their own.
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I think one problem that Borisivian may be encountering is followers that lean heavily on him even though he doesn't want to dance that style. Add to that the problem of some followers creating downward weight instead of forward weight, and if someone doesn't want to share weight, it can be fairly unpleasant. (downward weight is always unpleasant)

For it to work, followers have to do it properly and also know when to do it and when NOT to. They can't just assume a leader wants to hold them up!

But I agree that it is a legitimate style and choice as long as BOTH partners wish to dance that way.
 
Zoopsia59 said:
...For it to work, followers have to do it properly and also know when to do it and when NOT to...
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Leaders should also figure out when to do it, or not to.

There is no clear distinguishing difference between apilado and CE, such as between dogs and cats. It's all shades of gray, with every shade in the middle represented. Some dancers, leaders and followers both, lean very lightly, but they lean. Others lean more strongly. Others only appear to lean, but don't actually.

Dancing tango is a physical conversation. The dancers have to physically come to agreement about how they are going to hold each other and dance with each other. Some times this adjustment takes a while, other times it's can be very quick. Other times they don't find agreement and cease to dance with each other.
 
AndaBien said:
There is no clear distinguishing difference between apilado and CE, such as between dogs and cats. It's all shades of gray, with every shade in the middle represented. Some dancers, leaders and followers both, lean very lightly, but they lean. Others lean more strongly. Others only appear to lean, but don't actually.
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Yeah... its more like the difference between Border collies and tricolor collies. :) Or between collies and shelties.


By "properly" I didn't mean that there is a proper amount of lean that is correct. I meant that they have to learn how to be forward and not down when they lean. But then, we all have to make sure we aren't "down" for any other style too. They also have to be aware of whther te leader WANTS any of their weight before they give it over to him. You can't just go into an embrace and fall on him expecting him to catch you!

Its just that creating heavy downward weight seems a common early mistake for followers (judging from complaints I've heard from leaders) when trying to learn to dance with shared weight. Its not as common to be downwardly heavy in something like nuevo open embrace, no?

We are more likely to be smaller than our partner and more likely to be less aware of how heavy we are to him or how much he is holding us up. Since some guys are actually larger than average and don't feel that we are too heavy when we do certain things, we aren't always aware that another guy who is less hefty may find the exact same thing to be a problem.

I don't think leaders have quite this same issue to learn about because they are less likely to ever be much smaller than their female partners, and therefore less likely to ever assume they will be held up by her (or be unaware that they are so).

Women who are tiny may not have as much problem either because they may find that most guys are "hefty" compared to them. I am in the middle... I am much smaller in every way than some guys but taller than others. So it varies quite a bit how much of my weight any given apilado leader wants. The guys who are very tall, but not "hefty" are often the ones that are the hardest to connect to in apilado, because they sometimes bring their shoulders (and head) forward and not their chest (hunching down over partners.. even me)

Sorry for any confusion.. I didn't mean to imply that there is a specific angle of lean that is universally correct.
 
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