Changing the embrace..pleasing or not?

[Peaches]

Yes, there is. A lot. Especially considering that you haven't even bothered to read my post till the end and have directly proceeded with the standard vague mantras

If you read my post you'll see that the "/\" doesn't refer to to two people leaning against each other but to the legs of one person being in mid-stride.

Actually I did read your posts in their entirety. Doesn't mean I don't miss some points, but I did read them. And I still maintain my position...that it is possible to walk in a leaning-type configuration. Hell, that the diagram refers only to the legs makes even more sense (even though it was in no way clear in your original post), given that torsos are smooshed together and upright.

So, again, will you please explain your distinction between sharing weight at the torso level and leaning with your whole body. Because, otherwise, I stand by my position that you are, in fact, incorrect.

 

[borisvian13]

Leaning with a rigid body from the ankles into an upside down “V” is desirable for some effects but is not a very comfortable position to maintain a whole night. Nevertheless, it is certainly possible to walk in this position, otherwise nobody would ever get out of a volcada.

Leaning only from the hips is a funny European misinterpretation – don’t know, maybe some Americans do it too – as it results in sticking out one’s behind. Further, bending over - even slightly - will result in an back ache when maintained over any longer period....

I'm glad that you confirm my point. A posture which is not good for the whole night, is not good also for half of the night, for quarter of the night, etc., and is potentially harmful physically. And getting out of a volcada is getting out of this posture so it is certainly possible.


Leaning from the hips means leaning from the center of mass of one's whole body because that's where the center is. And I totally agree that this is a bad idea and that one of the consequences might be bending at the waist level which leads to a quite awkward posture. Another consequence might be trying to keep the whole body rigidly leaning which is physically harmful. The goal in this case is, strictly speaking, impossible, as I explained above.

Leaning from the torso's center however is perfectly fine and it doesn't require any bending at the waist level. Why? Well, let me recall, in case you have forgotten, that human spine is S-shaped, so it's natural for the chest to be forward.

Peaches, I totally respect your desire to disagree with things you don't understand but my philosophy of life is slightly different...

 

[Peaches]

Peaches, I totally respect your desire to disagree with things you don't understand but my philosophy of life is slightly different...

You have misunderstood me, sir.

My understanding of what you have written directly contradicts what I have been taught and what I understand to be true.

My question, therefore, given your tenacious insistence on the veracity of your statements, is if there has been something lost in the communication somewhere. Print is, after all, a significantly less-than-perfect medium for communicating about dance.

In an attempt figure out just where this disagreement is coming from, I am asking you, once again (for the third time), to explain what you mean by "the distinction between sharing weight at the torso's level and leaning with the whole body."

 

[Subliminal]

I'm glad that you confirm my point. A posture which is not good for the whole night, is not good also for half of the night, for quarter of the night, etc., and is potentially harmful physically. And getting out of a volcada is getting out of this posture so it is certainly possible.

Leaning from the hips means leaning from the center of mass of one's whole body because that's where the center is. And I totally agree that this is a bad idea and that one of the consequences might be bending at the waist level which leads to a quite awkward posture. Another consequence might be trying to keep the whole body rigidly leaning which is physically harmful. The goal in this case is, strictly speaking, impossible, as I explained above.

Leaning from the torso's center however is perfectly fine and it doesn't require any bending at the waist level. Why? Well, let me recall, in case you have forgotten, that human spine is S-shaped, so it's natural for the chest to be forward.

Peaches, I totally respect your desire to disagree with things you don't understand but my philosophy of life is slightly different...

Wait wait wait.

So you don't bend at the ankles.

So you don't bend at the hips.

You bend at the torso?! The hips and ankles are natural hinges... bending at the ankles is certainly possible, I freakin do it every time I go out dancing. Bending at the hips is possible, but uncomfortable. Bending at the torso... the spine is certainly flexible, but to get the right amount of lean would require collapsing the chest and hunching forward. Definitely not natural or comfortable. The most "natural" and comfortable position for the spine is straightened, with support by the surrounding muscles. You have to bend SOMEWHERE to get the space for your feet. Where are you bending?

 

[Ampster]

the distinction between sharing weight at the torso's level and leaning with the whole body.

Leaning from the torso's center however is perfectly fine and it doesn't require any bending at the waist level. Why? Well, let me recall, in case you have forgotten, that human spine is S-shaped, so it's natural for the chest to be forward.

I've been trying to understand what you've been trying to say about the torso. I still don't quite understand your description. Would you happen to have a picture? Perhaps a video?

 

[borisvian13]

Wait wait wait.

So you don't bend at the ankles.

So you don't bend at the hips.

You bend at the torso?! The hips and ankles are natural hinges... bending at the ankles is certainly possible, I freakin do it every time I go out dancing. Bending at the hips is possible, but uncomfortable. Bending at the torso... the spine is certainly flexible, but to get the right amount of lean would require collapsing the chest and hunching forward. Definitely not natural or comfortable. The most "natural" and comfortable position for the spine is straightened, with support by the surrounding muscles. You have to bend SOMEWHERE to get the space for your feet. Where are you bending?

Subliminal, I agree with most of what you've said above. The problem is simply that you don't read carefully, sorry

First, I've never said that bending at the ankles is impossible but that while walking the angle at this bending changes from acute to obtuse, hence it just doesn't make sense to talk about constant geometric lean from the ankles.

Second, I've never said "bend from the torso" ( that doesn't make much sense anyway) but lean from the torso's center. Here lean means "apply force from a center of mass of an object". Perhaps a better verb is "to share weight", but apparently I already caught the bad habit of using "lean" and "share weight" interchangeably from this forum ...
I promise to use "lean" only to mean "geometric lean" in the future.

Finally, how do you make more space for one's feet, you ask. I'd say you use the natural S-shape of your spine and make it slightly more expressive, again, using the natural flexibility of the body. Bending at a hinge is а too mechanical idea and it doesn't describe the situation well.

Ampster: Any video of say Javier and Geraldin will do, they have what I'd call the ideal posture. Of course, not all good dancers have exactly the same posture, but rather milder versions of it, so to speak

 

[Ampster]

Ampster: Any video of say Javier and Geraldin will do, they have what I'd call the ideal posture. Of course, not all good dancers have exactly the same posture, but rather milder versions of it, so to speak

Thank you. I get it. It looks like "Milonguero" to me— minus the embellishments, of course.

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[tanjive]

Subliminal, I agree with most of what you've said above. The problem is simply that you don't read carefully, sorry

First, I've never said that bending at the ankles is impossible but that while walking the angle at this bending changes from acute to obtuse, hence it just doesn't make sense to talk about constant geometric lean from the ankles.

Second, I've never said "bend from the torso" ( that doesn't make much sense anyway) but lean from the torso's center. Here lean means "apply force from a center of mass of an object". Perhaps a better verb is "to share weight", but apparently I already caught the bad habit of using "lean" and "share weight" interchangeably from this forum ...
I promise to use "lean" only to mean "geometric lean" in the future.

Finally, how do you make more space for one's feet, you ask. I'd say you use the natural S-shape of your spine and make it slightly more expressive, again, using the natural flexibility of the body. Bending at a hinge is а too mechanical idea and it doesn't describe the situation well.

Ampster: Any video of say Javier and Geraldin will do, they have what I'd call the ideal posture. Of course, not all good dancers have exactly the same posture, but rather milder versions of it, so to speak

You mean press the chest (front of torso) into the partner. Trying to press inside of them, like a boxer has to punch past an opponent. As opposed to bending at waist like a hinge like you would for leapfrog game.

I find a deep breath helps to inflate the girth from the spine so will give you the space required. I found in the last few months you need to follow that initial embrace inflation by breatihing into the abdomen. The chest is not rising and falling and helps to maintain good constant contact throughout the dance.

 

[Joe]

So he's saying you just bend forward at the hips?

 

[Subliminal]

 

[bordertangoman]

So he's saying you just bend forward at the hips?

but I would say the opposite;
bend back from the hips

 

[Zoopsia59]

Certainly what you are describing is quite unpleasant and I have experienced it but that's not my point.

What I wholeheartedly reject is the very statement that tango can be danced while leaning with the WHOLE body ( that is, from one's center of mass of the whole body which is located in the pelvis area for women and a bit above for me).

I don't like (what I feel to be) a lot of resistance at the torso level but that's my personal preference, while that thing about leaning with the whole body, leaning from the ankles, etc., is simply objectively, conceptually wrong.

Then we just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Zoopsia59]

God, I've been gone a year and things are still the same. Though why I should be surprised I don't know.

In a lot of these discussions I just want to say, listen to Zoops and Peaches and just shut the f up.

Larry Carroll - L. de Los Angeles

Yeah!
Everyone listen to me and shut up!
(ok... listen to Peaches too... what do we do if Peaches and I disagree? Has that ever happened?)

 

[Zoopsia59]

Explanation: These are the two legs of a human being in the middle of a step. While making a step the angle which your leg forms with the ground changes from obtuse to acute. To be even more explicit , in the symbol above the angle at the front leg is acute and the angle at the back leg is obtuse. Obviously that fact of life is not compatible with the idea that one leans forward from the ankles above uniformly. The only way to achieve something like that would be to try to step with knees bent at constant angle throughout the step , a rather ugly sight, which I hope no one is advocating

Unless I'm completely misunderstanding you, to me, you have it backwards... what we are espousing requires that you NOT maintain the exact bend in both knees the whole time. In fact, flexible knees are required.

So your picture:
/\

isn't very useful as a visual aid, because there are no knees in these legs.

should look more like this:
/ \
\ \

and at the point that the front leg is:
/
/

the back leg will be
/
\

OK... that picture doesn't work too well...

what I mean is that the leg straightens to extend and bends as weight is applied. If I'm leaning, there isn't a point where both legs are straight at the same time with my weight centered over them (and I can't draw it with punctuation). In fact, If I am leaning, my weight CAN"T be centered over my legs as I'm transferring weight. If it was, I wouldn't be leaning anymore.

(edited becase DF eliminated my extra spaces, so my pictures don't line up... How do people make punctuation pictures work?)

 

[Zoopsia59]

TThat is exactly what apilado is, and the diagram, if I had to make one, would be much like what you've shown. Again, it is entirely possible for two people, together, to walk like that.

Is something being lost in translation?

My impression was that the diagram was of the legs only.