Heather2007
New Member
Hmm..now there's a thought for some extra dosh - hee-hee.
You're right. You are.
Would it be arrogant of me to say..."I know". Ha, ha, ha. Wheeeezzz
Cliqueyness in tango :(
- Thread starter ~bailarina~
- Start date
Hmm..now there's a thought for some extra dosh - hee-hee.
Would it be arrogant of me to say..."I know". Ha, ha, ha. Wheeeezzz
Like Elvis sang, "cause I don't need no one sided love affairs".
I think the key is to mirror what you are receiving. I'm nice to people that are nice to me (and basically everyone gets one chance to screw me over). But I'm more than capable of either responding in kind, or completely ignore, (depending on my mood) people who are jerks.
If someone I barely know doesn't like me, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. After all, I've gotten along fine without them thus far. Let the fellowship of the miserable do their thing, and the rest of us will do ours.
:together:
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
please dont lump The Fellowship of The Miserable in with the unspeakable orcs of the tango world; we havnt quite finished our quest of getting the One Ring to Mordor. a bit of a mix up with Parcel Force so we are bludgeoning away through the Mountain of Undelivered Parcels.
Elerossë Lossëhelin
Wolfgang
Member
It is, of course, always very tricky to try to diagnose someone else's situation based on nothing more than an internet description.
However, cliquish behavior does not end with High School graduation.
It just moves to a new level.
Tango isn't exactly one of the popular 'social' dances - meaning in most parts of the world, you can't just go to nightclub X and dance to Tango on any given weekend - and that tends to breed a sort of 'elitism' among its' aficionados.
Also, if the OP is attractive (and possibly also a better dancer than the 'established' ladies in the group), she will have a VERY hard time making any friends there, at least female ones.
In my area, there are essentially two Tango 'groups', each centered around a different studio, one of them is led by a sort of 'guru' (for lack of a better word) and is in essence an extension of a larger dance organization men of more or less middle age tend to attend in order to meet more or less middle aged ladies.
At least the Tango portion is fairly hostile to male newcomers, especially those under 50 and attractive women under maybe 45 are NOT welcomed by the other women.
The other group is small but has a much broader range (20's - 60's) and is less cliquish, but there are certain hard to describe 'pick-up joint' elements.
Younger, attractive women being very welcome indeed, anybody else - much less so.
If you're a guy, you're basically yet another shark swimming towards a shipwreck.
I'd say the basic question the OP should ask herself is this: Can I learn something in this group?
If yes, stay and try to ignore the clique, if no, leave.
However, cliquish behavior does not end with High School graduation.
It just moves to a new level.
Tango isn't exactly one of the popular 'social' dances - meaning in most parts of the world, you can't just go to nightclub X and dance to Tango on any given weekend - and that tends to breed a sort of 'elitism' among its' aficionados.
Also, if the OP is attractive (and possibly also a better dancer than the 'established' ladies in the group), she will have a VERY hard time making any friends there, at least female ones.
In my area, there are essentially two Tango 'groups', each centered around a different studio, one of them is led by a sort of 'guru' (for lack of a better word) and is in essence an extension of a larger dance organization men of more or less middle age tend to attend in order to meet more or less middle aged ladies.
At least the Tango portion is fairly hostile to male newcomers, especially those under 50 and attractive women under maybe 45 are NOT welcomed by the other women.
The other group is small but has a much broader range (20's - 60's) and is less cliquish, but there are certain hard to describe 'pick-up joint' elements.
Younger, attractive women being very welcome indeed, anybody else - much less so.
If you're a guy, you're basically yet another shark swimming towards a shipwreck.
I'd say the basic question the OP should ask herself is this: Can I learn something in this group?
If yes, stay and try to ignore the clique, if no, leave.
opendoor
Forum Master
Sorry Me, I didn´t mean to attac you. Just thought that your view was too idealistic.
OD
Consuela
Member
Bailarina - I do feel for you.
A couple of years ago I received an email from an older woman purporting to be my friend, who told me that she had received many complaints about me from both men and women in our tango community. She never said who these people were, only that as she was known as my 'friend' they came to her in the hope that she would 'do something' about me. Her long and very detailed email listed accusations such as #1, I didn't smile enough; #2, I didn't wear enough makeup; #3, I was too heavy; #4, I didn't 'show enough skin' (ie wear revealing clothing); #5, my heels weren't high enough; #6, I would actually mention it if a leader hurt me (eg stood on my foot); and so on. It was a sustained, very personal attack which left me reeling. She told me that as she was my 'friend', she was telling me these things 'for my own good'. A short 'Excuse me??' email from me was answered with a very succinct message, to the effect that I should 'shape up or ship out'.
Although I really loved dancing, I very nearly gave up. It wasn't just the criticism, which hit me at a time when my confidence was very low; now I felt paranoid whenever I walked into a milonga or practica. Who were these people who said these things about me? Was I really so very offensive to all these people? My partner was extremely supportive, and for a long time I danced only with him, too afraid to even look anyone else in the eye. Over time, I pulled myself together and slowly began to build some good friendships with other women, practiced and went to classes with various teachers, and became a better dancer, and now, two years later, I have a number of lovely regular dance partners.
Interestingly, the woman who caused me so much grief dropped out of the tango scene some months after sending me those emails. I understand she burnt alot of bridges, not only with me but with other people as well. I later described my experience to a tango friend who is very clued-up about the local tango community, and she told me she hadn't heard of anyone complaining about me. Most likely the woman had made the whole thing up, for reasons of her own.
My point is, a minority of people can be so cruel or stupid that they will make you feel that everyone is pointing and staring and criticising, when most people actually are not. Most of us have better things to do with our time (eg dance!). My advice is just to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Keep practicing, and keep turning up to tango events (if necessary select the events you go to for minimum stress). If you find you are not being asked to dance very often, try to relax, enjoy watching, and don't force things. Look for a friendly face among the other women, and seek out a chat and a laugh. If that isn't working, just take care of yourself. While reading a book may appear abit too antisocial at a milonga, other more social pastimes can provide a conversation starter and warm people up, not to mention help you to relax. If you like to draw, take a small sketchbook along to milongas (dancers make great subjects) and quietly and unobtrusively scribble away. Knitting or tarot cards can be fun and often garner interest from unexpected quarters! One friend of mine does reiki for dancers who are abit sore. I read tarot cards, and in doing so I have gotten to know quite a few really cool people at tango. If all else fails, take your phone out of your bag and text a non-tango friend for abit of light relief.
Many tango communities seem to be beset with factions and feuds (mine certainly is) and it can be abit of a pressure-cooker environment. Take your time, enjoy it for what it is, and you will eventually find friends you can rely on. Take it from me, it will be worth it!
A couple of years ago I received an email from an older woman purporting to be my friend, who told me that she had received many complaints about me from both men and women in our tango community. She never said who these people were, only that as she was known as my 'friend' they came to her in the hope that she would 'do something' about me. Her long and very detailed email listed accusations such as #1, I didn't smile enough; #2, I didn't wear enough makeup; #3, I was too heavy; #4, I didn't 'show enough skin' (ie wear revealing clothing); #5, my heels weren't high enough; #6, I would actually mention it if a leader hurt me (eg stood on my foot); and so on. It was a sustained, very personal attack which left me reeling. She told me that as she was my 'friend', she was telling me these things 'for my own good'. A short 'Excuse me??' email from me was answered with a very succinct message, to the effect that I should 'shape up or ship out'.
Although I really loved dancing, I very nearly gave up. It wasn't just the criticism, which hit me at a time when my confidence was very low; now I felt paranoid whenever I walked into a milonga or practica. Who were these people who said these things about me? Was I really so very offensive to all these people? My partner was extremely supportive, and for a long time I danced only with him, too afraid to even look anyone else in the eye. Over time, I pulled myself together and slowly began to build some good friendships with other women, practiced and went to classes with various teachers, and became a better dancer, and now, two years later, I have a number of lovely regular dance partners.
Interestingly, the woman who caused me so much grief dropped out of the tango scene some months after sending me those emails. I understand she burnt alot of bridges, not only with me but with other people as well. I later described my experience to a tango friend who is very clued-up about the local tango community, and she told me she hadn't heard of anyone complaining about me. Most likely the woman had made the whole thing up, for reasons of her own.
My point is, a minority of people can be so cruel or stupid that they will make you feel that everyone is pointing and staring and criticising, when most people actually are not. Most of us have better things to do with our time (eg dance!). My advice is just to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Keep practicing, and keep turning up to tango events (if necessary select the events you go to for minimum stress). If you find you are not being asked to dance very often, try to relax, enjoy watching, and don't force things. Look for a friendly face among the other women, and seek out a chat and a laugh. If that isn't working, just take care of yourself. While reading a book may appear abit too antisocial at a milonga, other more social pastimes can provide a conversation starter and warm people up, not to mention help you to relax. If you like to draw, take a small sketchbook along to milongas (dancers make great subjects) and quietly and unobtrusively scribble away. Knitting or tarot cards can be fun and often garner interest from unexpected quarters! One friend of mine does reiki for dancers who are abit sore. I read tarot cards, and in doing so I have gotten to know quite a few really cool people at tango. If all else fails, take your phone out of your bag and text a non-tango friend for abit of light relief.
Many tango communities seem to be beset with factions and feuds (mine certainly is) and it can be abit of a pressure-cooker environment. Take your time, enjoy it for what it is, and you will eventually find friends you can rely on. Take it from me, it will be worth it!
tangomaniac
Well-Known Member
I know exactly what you're talking about. I posted some dispatches on Tango L during my recent Buenos Aires vacation. One person persistently wrote that I was a terrible dancer and I needed lessons because women have complained to him for years about my dancing. (Why would they complain to him? He's not special.) The strange thing is I saw him at the Atlanta Tango Festival. He said nothing but waited until I was thousands of miles away before attacking me.
Tango brings out the best -- and the worst --from dancers. Some people need to feel important, even at somebody else's expense.
I'm glad you stayed. Daniel Trenner said (I hope I get this right) "that no matter how good you get, there will always be people who wouldn't like you anyway." You seem to have found one.
Michael
Washington, DC
Tango brings out the best -- and the worst --from dancers. Some people need to feel important, even at somebody else's expense.
I'm glad you stayed. Daniel Trenner said (I hope I get this right) "that no matter how good you get, there will always be people who wouldn't like you anyway." You seem to have found one.
Michael
Washington, DC
bordertangoman
Well-Known Member
I have found this to be true, too. I wonder why some people put any energy into thinking about me at all.( especially when their dancing is so in its infancy) Fine I dont have a problem with being rated, or you may have enjoyed or not enjoyed dancing with me, but I dont really socialise when I'm dancing so whatever they may think about me; its largely projection. And I dont care if they like me or not I only care that I dance to the best of my ability and that they do the same. My friends are the people I arrive and leave with or choose to meet on other occasions.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
I know what you mean - I'm always surprised when anyone actually thinks or talks about me - I mean, why would they? But apparently it happens.
I've no idea why - I mean why talk when you can dance? - but possibly I've not got into the "Milongas are not for dancing, you fool!" mindset yet.
Actually, the fact that there is proportionately less dancing - in percentage terms - at milongas compared to other dance forms may be a factor. If you're not dancing for most of the time, then there's more time to chat / gossip. And at the risk of sounding massively sexist, I think the women in Tango gossip far more than the men anyway.
Heather2007
New Member
Ha, ha, ha. Want to be my co-partner on these little seminars I'm going to run entitled "Learn How To Be Arrogant With Panache". Pots of wonga in it
Oh we're absolute wretches when it comes to having a good ole natter. No matter. Whereever. I even get shooshed in cinemas. ;-)
Really?? *I* think about you. Trust me, its all good. Most humans don't come anywhere near my thought patterns.
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Sign me up for that too, pleaseHa, ha, ha. Want to be my co-partner on these little seminars I'm going to run entitled "Learn How To Be Arrogant With Panache". Pots of wonga in it
Dave Bailey
Active Member
Great, yet another stalker
Heather2007
New Member
Great, yet another stalker
Hey, don't knock it man. Remember the words of Oscar Wilde.