Close embrace

Subliminal said:
Of course, the reality is, outside of BsAs, it's a negotiation, and how you present yourself determines what embrace you have. If you tentatively reach for the follower, she may assume you are a newbie, and go for open. If you confidently move for a close embrace, she might be more inclined to think you know what you're doing and accept close embrace. Or she may just be an open tango dancer, and will block you anyway. ;) If a follower blocks you, you never force it. But don't waffle either, make your preference clear.
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Amen to this!

People seem to get so hung up on if you're "supposed" to let one partner or the other choose if they want to dance close or open. IME, it's always a negotiation. You can tell most of the time what the other person is comfortable with, just as Sub has said. And right along with that, even if your preference is for one or the other, you NEVER force that preference on the other person if you sense it making them uncomfortable. End of story, regardless if you're a man or a woman.
 
UKDancer said:
I have been told, very firmly, that the closeness of the embrace is the follower's decision, not the leaders.
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newbie said:
It is not. The distance/closeness is part of the leading. Move to the right. Stop. Come closer. Now backwards. Again. Cross. Take one step forward. Loosen the embrace. Make a front boleo. Pivot and move backwards. Backwards again. Come closer.
Btw, as a leader who likes to change the closeness a lot within a song, I am very often annoyed by followers who keep staying glued once they're in close embrace, while the opposite (the follower who stays at range) is a rarity.
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There are two different things going on.

The first is the question of what sort of "default embrace" is going to be used. Everyone has their own opinion--the man sets it, the woman determines it, blah blah blah. I have always experienced it as a negotiation.

The second issue is what happens within the dance itself. If the man wants to open up to do some figures, then it is his responsibility to lead them correctly and to open up and close the embrace. Similarly, though, it is the woman's responsibility to know how to allow him to open and close that distance. The exceptions here would be, if the woman has indicated that she is not comfortable with close embrace at the beginning, then don't try to force it during the dance.
 
dchester said:
Take a look at this video. Maybe it's not the best example (as the leader doesn't have to do all the stepping to lead these), but hopefully you'll get the idea.

They start @ around 1:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN-7DfcTdzE
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That's a brilliant video dchester.
Oscar Casas is my favourite contemporary milonguero dancer
with his uniquely (unless you know different) languidly fluid style,
even his walk towards Marianne has natural delay.

However wonderful together they are, videos of established partnerships
are misleading because they have an understanding beyond the norm of
social dancing and its change of partners. Leads become so subtle that
visual interpretation is virtually impossible.

Actually the section starting at 1:18 isn't repeating back ochos but more
enganches with only the left leg back crossing then unentangling the right
and stepping back. Which is then all repeated again twice.
Obviously some of the same principles are being used.

In fact I learned the enganche from an Oscar Casa video in the days when
cross basic crossed me up no end and scrambled my brain. So a really
clear class summary was amazingly helpful. Far more helpful than classes
as I was able to rewatch as often as needed (and I needed to, a lot) and
practise with partners as and when. The repeated enganche eventually
became natural but I have no idea if my feet look remotely like Oscar's.

There is a debate raging on Tango-L about the use of video, I have no doubt
about the role it can play, if used sensibly and based on good technique.
But you cannot learn exclusively from video alone just the same as
teacher can't "make" a good dancer.
 
JohnEm said:
That's a brilliant video dchester.
Oscar Casas is my favourite contemporary milonguero dancer
with his uniquely (unless you know different) languidly fluid style,
even his walk towards Marianne has natural delay.
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He's certainly someone who I'd love to take classes from. As luck would have it, during my first trip to BsAs, he was teaching in Chicago.

:headwall:

Maybe I'll be lucky enough to catch some of his classes in my next trip there.
 
JohnEm said:
Oscar Casas is my favourite contemporary milonguero dancer with his uniquely (unless you know different) languidly fluid style...
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Yes, true for me too. They are both fine dancers, but I find that I can't take my eyes of what he is doing with his feet. Languid is exactly the right term too: I wish I had 10% of his skill and fluency.

I have several hours of his stuff downloaded from YouTube in case the originals ever 'disappeared'.
 
plugger said:
I'm still trying to figure what's meant by a milonguero style back ocho without pivots.
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In a pivoting ocho, the goal is to step on a line that is perpendicular to the pelvis. In order to do that, the hips must rotate to be perpendicular to the line of intended travel (whether it is a sequence of ochos or ochos as part of a molinete)

In the milonguero style of dancing, the line created by the placement of the foot is NOT perpendicular to the line of the hips. The hips remain facing the leader and the foot ends up crossing to whatever extent is necessary to land where the leader puts the follower. The video I posted of Mariana Galassi shows this in an extreme of crossing side steps, but they can also be done traveling.

But the key is that the followers hips face the leader and the leg does whatever it has to in order execute the step led. The extent of crossing depends on various factors of how (and where) the leader moves with his lead. If he travels, it will cross less. If he doesn't travel, it will cross so much as to be more of a side step than a backstep.

This video of Rebecca and Evan might help even though it is for a molinete, the same principle applies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_hA60U5fi0&feature=channel
 
Ampster said:
Hey, it's Osci. Great dancer. Good and entertaining teacher... but he tried to steal my table at a milonga once! :rolleyes:
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Maybe, if he had taken a few classes from me, he would have succeeded at it.

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Dave Bailey wrote: It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important.

Does that mean these are two different steps? Whether or not, I gather from all the comments that any diagonal motion characteristic of ochos in open embrace has been reduced almost to vanishing in CE, and no pivoting is needed because the lady steps almost straight back anyway (but with a slight crossing of the feet.)
As I mentioned, back ochos in CE look to me almost like the normal walk anyway, in which the lady hides one foot behind the other or nearly so.
Other things are reduced that way in CE too. A sacada in a simple cross-system walk can be so subtle that the displacement is hardly noticeable compared to the regular steps before and after it.
 
plugger said:
Dave Bailey wrote: It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important.

Does that mean these are two different steps? Whether or not, I gather from all the comments that any diagonal motion characteristic of ochos in open embrace has been reduced almost to vanishing in CE, and no pivoting is needed because the lady steps almost straight back anyway (but with a slight crossing of the feet.)
As I mentioned, back ochos in CE look to me almost like the normal walk anyway, in which the lady hides one foot behind the other or nearly so.
Other things are reduced that way in CE too. A sacada in a simple cross-system walk can be so subtle that the displacement is hardly noticeable compared to the regular steps before and after it.
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My Bold - Define open embrace, go on, I dare you!
Another 300 posts coming up :p

As for the rest - hasn't all this been covered all this already?

But for clarity:

In the embrace an inline cross basic walk requires the lady to take her
free leg around the standing leg to pass. If the man steps slightly to each
side it becomes a travelling back ocho with the lady taking her free leg
further around and behind the standing leg. Reduce the travel of travelling
back ocho and with right lead and good connection it can reduce to a series
of repeating back crosses by each leg in turn with little or no travel at all.

Is that clearer?
 
plugger said:
Dave Bailey wrote: It's not a "milonguero style back ocho", it's an "ocho milonguero" - I'm not being picky here, the difference is important.

Does that mean these are two different steps? Whether or not, I gather from all the comments that any diagonal motion characteristic of ochos in open embrace has been reduced almost to vanishing in CE, and no pivoting is needed because the lady steps almost straight back anyway (but with a slight crossing of the feet.)
As I mentioned, back ochos in CE look to me almost like the normal walk anyway, in which the lady hides one foot behind the other or nearly so.
Other things are reduced that way in CE too. A sacada in a simple cross-system walk can be so subtle that the displacement is hardly noticeable compared to the regular steps before and after it.
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I think DB was the one being picky, but generally the step being discussed is usually referred to as either milonguero ochos or ocho(s) milonguero. You don't normally see it referred to with the word "style" in there any place. I think most of us knew what you were referring to though. Thus, it is not 2 different steps.

We seem to have as many discussions here about the proper (as well as the meaning of) terminology, as we do about the actual tango concepts. I suspect it's due to people being from all different countries, and not wanting to conform to the proper (i.e. US) dialect of the English language.

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