Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[ArbeeNYC]

I can't say I find it fun to dance with a "traditional" follower who never took courses in anything and who sees tango as something to be learned on the floor, even if she has decades of dancing in the milonga. To quote one of my teachers, "When somebody tells you they've been dancing for X years, it means nothing. Since they brought it up, ask how many of those years included courses, and for how many hours a week." (I can say six years, peaking at 20 hours/week, and usually volunteer that if challenged.)

Yeah, well, taking classes and workshops doesn't make you a good or better dancer. It simply means you've taken a lot of classes and been exposed to different aspects of the dance. The older milongueros and milongueras were neither physical fitness buffs nor graduates of endless workshops. Most of them learned from one another and by dancing. The difference is that the music was part of their culture as was the dance; it was something integral to their development. For us, it's something we've adopted. Those non-course-taking milongueras may not be as fit or as fast as your young crowd of pilates graduates, but they knew (know) how to interpret the music. Dancers, especially young dancers, today are probably in better shape and better trained than they were 50 or 60 years ago in B.A., but that doesn't make them better dancers.

 

[JournalInTime]

I can't say I find it fun to dance with a "traditional" follower who never took courses in anything and who sees tango as something to be learned on the floor, even if she has decades of dancing in the milonga

Yeah, well, taking classes and workshops doesn't make you a good or better dancer.

As I said in the quoted passage, it's a question of fun for me, not a judgment of "good" or "better." I consider pulling, pushing, or hanging; not creating her own pivots and energy; having little to no core support; and throwing in dangerous decorations that crack me in the shins all to be "no fun." It may well all be highly musical, but I don't care about that if the beat is pounded out on my body. If I can, I'll dance with someone who has excellent body control and excellent musicality, but if I can choose just one, I'll choose body control. I guess I'm saying that "good" can refer to technique or musicality or a dozen other things, and I value technique the most

Those non-course-taking milongueras may not be as fit or as fast as your young crowd of pilates graduates, but they knew (know) how to interpret the music. Dancers, especially young dancers, today are probably in better shape and better trained than they were 50 or 60 years ago in B.A., but that doesn't make them better dancers.

I take your point, but unfortunately for my back and shins, they (especially the expat argentinas) seem to take the view that manning up, being a macho, and just taking the beating is part of the leader's role. I disagree. My dance education was informed by fitness instructors who put comfort and safety first, and taught me that body control and movement discipline are essential for comfort and safety. So perhaps I'm ruined for tango, but I have fewer injuries like the attached one, delivered by a very experienced and musical follower with no respect for my safety.

 

[JournalInTime]

. . . delivered by a very experienced and musical follower with no respect for my safety.

Who later took responsibility for it but laughed through her apology afterwards with words to the effect that I was a big boy and would be fine. All kinds of nice words about a fun, musical tanda . . . for her. I had to go home and take Aspirin.

 

[itwillhappen]

"Since they brought it up, ask how many of those years included courses, and for how many hours a week."

Just let it be. It means nothing, too.

 

[JournalInTime]

Just let it be. It means nothing, too.

True enough. But I'm a physicist by education, so some of my nothings and infinities are different from others. The nothing of years of lessons means more to me than the nothing of years of dancing.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

So perhaps I'm ruined for tango, but I have fewer injuries like the attached one, delivered by a very experienced and musical follower with no respect for my safety.

Accidents happen on a crowded floor, for a variety of reasons. But were you leading her or was someone else. If someone else, the fault lies with the other leader.

 

[JohnEm]

Accidents happen on a crowded floor, for a variety of reasons. But were you leading her or was someone else. If someone else, the fault lies with the other leader.

Not necessarily.

There are plenty of "followers" who lift their high-heeled
feet off the floor to autonomously wave their legs around.
Woe betide anyone within range. I have been amazed
in the past just how high their sharp high heels can reach.

I long for the time when some intelligent teacher will tell
women that high heels are by no means compulsory for tango.
For most people I know they are an impediment to real dance.

 

[JournalInTime]

There are plenty of "followers" who lift their high-heeled feet off the floor to autonomously wave their legs around.

This.

The injury I talked about earlier was due to my partner doing exactly that – specifically, a high pasada with far too many adornos, all of them dangerous.

But another time I was almost literally hugging the wall in the outermost lane when the leg of a follower in the next lane in cracked me from an astonishing distance. A witness said it looked more like tae kwon do than tango. And the follower in question is popular for her "fun" and "musicality." I prefer the followers who know exactly where 100% of their body is at all times.

 

[Rabbit]

The older milongueros and milongueras were neither physical fitness buffs nor graduates of endless workshops. Most of them learned from one another and by dancing.

Yeah but no one is complaining about experienced dancers that are good, and you certainly don't need an extremely high level of physical fitness or technique to be considered a good dancer.

I think all of us are complaining about experienced dancers (both leaders and followers) who have been dancing for a long time and still manage to cause a bad experience for their partners and other people on the floor due to being actually incompetent in one or more fundamental aspects of the dance. Again I would stress that the minimal acceptable level of floorcraft, balance, control, musicality etc is actually not very high unless you are in one of the more elitist events, and safety would be easy if people would let go of their egos and just refrain from doing "moves" they can't do properly or safely.

 

[JournalInTime]

I think all of us are complaining about experienced dancers (both leaders and followers) who have been dancing for a long time and still manage to cause a bad experience for their partners and other people on the floor due to being actually incompetent in one or more fundamental aspects of the dance.

Exactly this. And at least where I live in 2019, the surest way to become competent is not by hanging around dance events and other dancers, but by taking classes. Schools and teachers that consistently create dangerous dancers get badmouthed and go out of business (though I think more go out of business due to mismanagement), so they have competence as a goal. Dance events and personal friendships are social first, which means a lot of bad stuff gets overlooked in the name of "face," "honor," and camaraderie. I strongly suspect that the latter was always the case . . . we're fortunate these days to have the former as an antidote.

 

[Rabbit]

Yeah but the classes have to teach the right things. And then the Dunning-Kruger effect applies so the people who need to learn these things don't go to the classes.

 

[itwillhappen]

True enough. But I'm a physicist by education, so some of my nothings and infinities are different from others. The nothing of years of lessons means more to me than the nothing of years of dancing.

If, then I would count only years where one is exploring new things.
New locations, workshops abroad, tango holidays, role changing, barman, DJing, such stuff.
Going through a series of classes at a tango school from beginner to very advanced and some workshops inhouse - nothing new there.

 

[latinjazz]

Yeah but the classes have to teach the right things. And then the Dunning-Kruger effect applies so the people who need to learn these things don't go to the classes.

I just looked up the Dunning-Kruger effect and was enlighted!
Finally I have a definition for 80% of the world around me!
Thanks!

 

[opendoor]

..then the Dunning-Krüger effect applies..

Ive heard of that effect before but what came to mind first was the Voight-Kampff test.

 

[itwillhappen]

For me, the moments when the dancefloor breathes and pulses with the music, and everybody is part of that pulse, these are the magic moments.

BTW, I'm still looking for a video of a ronda where one can see at least the phrases of the music while audio muted.