Contradictions in teaching “caminar”

[Gssh]

So, he creates an umbrella term "modern tango" that covers all the "modern" non-traditional forms of tango: nuevo, neo, and whatever.

I don't think this is the line he draws - modern tango is for him "a development of performance tango into a social style". The exponents of "modern tango" that he cites are "Petroleo, Cachafaz, Carmencita, Virulazo, Todaro...... Copes and Nieves, Gavito, Gloria & Eduardo, Miguel Zotto, Milena Plebs and others".

And there is also vidort again, as an example of the classical tango (i assume), not performing and showboating at all, just enjoying a intimate, connected dance just for himself and his partner, dancing his feelings.

I am all for advocating for the social dance, but a intimate performance in the round is not less a performance than a stage performance.

 

[Gssh]

How actively? It shouldn't be like "Whoa! What was that?" kind of active.

In the context of the article - i wonder if the lack of active following is a consequence of the externalization of the dance - in a tightly connected dance the leader can much easier and seamlessly work with pauses and changes that are introduced by the follower. So if the follower does a foot tap at the apex of an ocho, and delays the whole thing it is less "whoa! what was that", but more "sweet - that ocho that we did was nicely accented and fit the music".

By making embellishments big and visible we make difficult for the dance to smoothly flow with them, and if they require explicit pauses/break the lead then it turns into something else. So it becomes difficult for followers to explore that space - and performance style moves that are on the edge of what the geometry can support also make this space very narrow.

And in a performance there is obviously less space for the game of lead and follow, the continuous adaptation to each other and the maintenance of the couple, so having a more one sided dances makes sense.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I am all for advocating for the social dance, but a intimate performance in the round is not less a performance than a stage performance.

I disagree with this completely. They are polar opposites. In this, I would agree with the author of the Modern Tango piece. Your comment makes no sense to me as a statement about tango. Stage performance is completely directed toward an audience, that is its raison d'être. Social dancing is all about the couple. And if you're "performing" at a social dance, I'd say you might want to reevaluate your approach to the dance.

 

[Gssh]

I blame the women's technique classes for this

I think overall a lot of teaching is somewhat dire - the way vocabulary is taught to leaders leads to similar distortions. Musicality as a channel of communication is completely neglected, as is how to work with the followers input, which leads to leaders really learning how to dance a solo dance where the follower is somewhat incidental. (The thing i tend to dislike most after followers workshops is when some people are mistaken about what you practice when you do ochos against the wall, and start powering their movement by pushing against the leader instead through dissociation)

Just like people using stage performance style projection when not on stage i think it is deep down a failure to communicate what the actual core of what they are trying to teach it, and students getting stuck on external markers. Of course this is a common problem - it is the same as studying to pass tests instead of learning the material, or companies working hard to improve metrics to appease stockholders instead of improving what the metrics are supposed to measure.

(my favourite example is where (i think in the uk) railway managers would simply cancel delayed trains - because a cancelled train did not impact the average punctuality of the line, and that was what counted for performance reviews....)

 

[Gssh]

Social dancing is all about the couple. And if you're "performing" at a social dance, I'd say you might want to reevaluate your approach to the dance.

Do you consider the two examples of vidort dancing in the video that accompanies the article to be a social dance? (I assumed the author considered them as such - maybe i misunderstood, and this is really an example of a performance/modern tango?)

I don't think a performance at a milonga is a social dance - it is as conscious a display of skills to an audience as any other performance. Sure, a close-up performance can use different tools, and different projections, but it is in the end for the audience.

 

[Rabbit]

I don't think a performance at a milonga is a social dance - it is as conscious a display of skills to an audience as any other performance. Sure, a close-up performance can use different tools, and different projections, but it is in the end for the audience.

And this of course makes trying to evaluate people's social dance styles based on performance videos on youtube very inaccurate.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Do you consider the two examples of vidort dancing in the video that accompanies the article to be a social dance? (I assumed the author considered them as such - maybe i misunderstood, and this is really an example of a performance/modern tango?)

I don't think a performance at a milonga is a social dance - it is as conscious a display of skills to an audience as any other performance. Sure, a close-up performance can use different tools, and different projections, but it is in the end for the audience.

Are we talking about two different things again? Vidort's performance was definitely a performance, although he has claimed in interviews that for him it's a personal dance and he dances the same way in social settings.

A performance at a milonga is a performance not a social dance. But that's not what I was referring to. You said:

a intimate performance in the round is not less a performance than a stage performance.

I'm not sure what that means exactly. By round, I assume you mean "ronda." By "intimate performance" I assumed you meant two couples dancing on the floor with other couples. If you meant a "performance" at a milonga, that is something very different. And still a performance.

 

[Gssh]

a intimate performance in the round is not less a performance than a stage performance.

Sorry - too much theatre - a performance in the round is a performance where the audience sits around the performance space, and by intimate performance i meant the audience being really close to the performers. (in theatre this can sometimes mean that there is no stage, and performers and audience are on the same level - if you can catch a performance like that i highly recommend it - it can be quite intense). Pretty much like a milonga.

(it is actually quite interesting to think about the staging of performances - tango (especially performance tango) is structurally tricky in that regard - if you try to emulate social dance conventions and move in the line of dance the closed side of the couple is towards the audience. Pure performances often simply move against the line of dance, but even in situations where the performers adhere to the line of dance there is usually a large amount of vocabulary that is specifically designed to present the "interesting side" to the audience. Watching e.g. the salon mundial and paying attention to how the different couples approach this is really interesting; One of the things that i have wondered if in 21st century performances is if performers actually still need to project their movement all that much - e.g. at the mundial there are the huge screens that show all the details anyway. If we look at how the microphone has changed performances in music (e.g. the soft singer-songwriter style folk only exists with amplification/ in recordings - actual folk traditions use singing technique that carries better) we could extrapolate that today it might be possible to do performances that do "classical tango" flashiness.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Sorry - too much theatre - a performance in the round is a performance where the audience sits around the performance space, and by intimate performance i meant the audience being really close to the performers.

So, I completely misunderstood what you were getting at. I've been to performances "in the round" in the past, so I'm somewhat familiar with them. But a performance at a milonga is a performance nonetheless. Most I have seen take place in the center of the floor and move wherever the couple wants to move. It's almost never along the line of dance.

 

[Rabbit]

I think the performances create the wrong impression of what contemporary social tango is actually about - the point of having a larger vocabulary and a larger variety of dynamics isn't to impress the onlookers at a milonga. The point is to have a larger variety of connected movements to share with the partner, and more options to interpret the music. The connection between the partners is just as deep as it would be dancing with a restricted vocabulary/dynamic provided the partners are able to comfortably and easily execute the movements.

It's easy to look at a boleo or a large projected step and conclude that the focus of the dance is directed outwards but this is not actually the case in good social dancing. The focus is still directed inwards towards the couple, at the sensations created by the shared movement and the emotion caused by how it fits into the musical flow. The dance only becomes externalized when the dancers focus on how the dance looks to spectators, and this is a problem equally shared by all "styles" because it has more to do with the dancers' ego than anything else.

 

[Greybeard]

I always dance for an audience...
of one...
my partner.

 

[Gssh]

I think the performances create the wrong impression of what contemporary social tango is actually about - the point of having a larger vocabulary and a larger variety of dynamics isn't to impress the onlookers at a milonga.

I think it is somewhat more insidious - i don't believe that the gap between performance and social dance in vocabulary and range of dynamics is all that big - it is more a question of emphasis and presentation - but at the same time i believe that this makes trying to model ones social dance after performances more dangerous/destructive.

Whenever people suggest that the technique and structure of the "classic" tango is about simplicity and i point towards these of performances and they just non-stop technical fireworks using pretty much exactly the same vocabulary. Sure, the look is different than chicho, but in some ways chichos preference of how he wants to project the movement and juanas preference how she expresses herself make it less technical - it is bigger and therefore slower. Similar the tendency towards this jagged staccato movements in the mundial - it is not faster, but because the need to be more visible the steps are bigger, creating a very different look.

Now, if i think that these are in the end all pretty much the same why would i consider it bad for social dance to look too much at performances? My experience has been that while good social dance technique (good embrace, good walk, awareness of ones partner and the ronda) over time organically opens up the things that are considered "advanced" vocabulary the reverse is not true - instead if a dancer starts with an emphasis on advanced vocabulary it seems to make it more difficult to get the simple things in place afterward because one has to unlearn a lot of specific shortcuts and tricks that made these moves work despite the fact that the basics were not actually up to supporting them. I had people ask me how to do the small inside and outside saccadas i tend to throw into my walk if the follower seems to have fun with it, and i honestly can't explain - and telling a beginner that they just have to walk a lot till the followers feet and steps are as present to me as my own feet is not very satisfying (and it is exactly the kind of mystical mumbling that i hated as a beginner). But if they actually study and practice a sequence like that they tend to paradoxically become less connected to their partners, and the connection to the walk gets lost.

All this is of course not necessarily applicable to good performers - they live and breathe technique and musicality and connection to their partners and being able to use external means to share a internal experience, but when we average dancers think about performance technique being disruptive on the dancefloor, we don't think of them. (And sometimes i think this is a bit unfair to them)

 

[ArbeeNYC]

My experience has been that while good social dance technique (good embrace, good walk, awareness of ones partner and the ronda) over time organically opens up the things that are considered "advanced" vocabulary the reverse is not true - instead if a dancer starts with an emphasis on advanced vocabulary it seems to make it more difficult to get the simple things in place afterward because one has to unlearn a lot of specific shortcuts and tricks that made these moves work despite the fact that the basics were not actually up to supporting them.

This I can agree with. It's an important concept.

 

[Tango Distance]

... when the dancers focus on how the dance looks to spectators, ... it has more to do with the dancers' ego than anything else.

It might often be ego, but not always. I think focus on one's partner and looking good to the audience can peacefully coexist.

• "Can we please try that move we learned in class?"
• We are getting videoed. I might do something fancier than zombie shuffling to make my partner look good for the viewers' pleasure.
  
• The music just calls for big and bold moves (and there is room to do it safely)
• The joy of motion (and it just happens to look good to spectators)
• Newbies to Tango really seem to like a flashy move or two (not too many, though!)
• Are birthday dances an ego thing? They tend to be pretty flashy that I have seen.

Another interesting data point: I took a performance class. The men were measured, and said things like "neat, it'll be something new." The women were giddy and beyond excited. Fees were 3x of normal class -- not one lady complained. Partners were required, and 3 women quickly asked if I would partner with them (very surprising to me, as I am the Tango Distance and it should have been 100% obvious the Tango Closeness would be my partner). I wanted to do the class, but not actually perform. To my surprise, the Tango Closeness really wanted to perform, so I agreed. Then the Tango Closeness got hurt. My plan was to just drop out; I wasn't asked, I was directed to perform with a lady who lost her partner... Then the lady instructor had the male instructor practice and perform with her, so the lady instructor could perform with me! Talk about pressure, everyone would know who was responsible for any mistakes! Then, despite have missed much of the practice and still in pain, the Tango Closeness announced she would be performing with me after all! So long story short is I was amazed how much the dozen or so ladies, instructor included, wanted to perform. So random thought, maybe it was the statistics of small numbers, but just maybe ladies on average like to perform more than men do? Maybe, just maybe, they like dance that feels good and looks good to others? Please note I pose it as a question and not as a pronouncement, and would like to hear comments on that.

 

[Rabbit]

It might often be ego, but not always. I think focus on one's partner and looking good to the audience can peacefully coexist.

• "Can we please try that move we learned in class?"
• We are getting videoed. I might do something fancier than zombie shuffling to make my partner look good for the viewers' pleasure.
  
• The music just calls for big and bold moves (and there is room to do it safely)
• The joy of motion (and it just happens to look good to spectators)
• Newbies to Tango really seem to like a flashy move or two (not too many, though!)
• Are birthday dances an ego thing? They tend to be pretty flashy that I have seen.

But all of these are dancing for the partner, except for the video thing. What it looks like is secondary to how it feels. Usually, if it feels good physically and musically it will automatically look good anyway. Being aware of being videoed does tend to turn the dance into a bit of a performance, but that's completely understandable.

My experience has been that while good social dance technique (good embrace, good walk, awareness of ones partner and the ronda) over time organically opens up the things that are considered "advanced" vocabulary the reverse is not true - instead if a dancer starts with an emphasis on advanced vocabulary it seems to make it more difficult to get the simple things in place afterward because one has to unlearn a lot of specific shortcuts and tricks that made these moves work despite the fact that the basics were not actually up to supporting them.

Hmm, part of the problem seems more to be that the shortcuts and tricks were taught (or remained uncorrected) in the first place.

The other thing is that the technique you mention also depends on fundamental skills like balance / muscle control / core strength / body awareness that can take people a very long time to develop if they didn't start with them. I think we probably have to give them some moves in the meantime so they don't get bored and quit. If the moves are taught correctly, then practicing them should build these fundamental skills anyway.