"Dear Simone"

[newbie]

What is a trained teacher?

 

[bordertangoman]

I kind of liked his idea that a small amount of teacher's touch can be more effective than far more time of observing the teacher - OK, visual learners are out of luck... but they're in the minority aren't they (pesky minorities, always messing up perfect theories!)....

I would say that's "stating the bleedin' obvious"

the translation of what you see into your own body can never be perfect, especially if you dont have a mirror to see yourself....

 

[little hobo]

Knowing something of this person, I'd be amazed if there's anyone in London still talking to him, let alone dancing with him.

 

[Dave Bailey]

EDIT: Can't get much more hardcore than respecting the cabeceo so much that he thinks it should be used as a way to select partners in a dance class!...

I'm running an improvers workshop in October. I think I'll try that one out on them

I agree that structured partner rotation is a good idea. I wouldn't go down the "rotate every minute" system practiced by Modern Jive classes, but I definitely think it should be done. Unless you're only ever going to dance with one person in your life, you need to know how to dance with different people, of different shapes, sizes and abilities.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Yes, he ruins the rant by bulling himself up, and rather relentlessly at that.
But does his professional teaching training/experience help to teach something as personal as tango? He suggests a modern teaching method yet reverts to recommending the Argentinian attitude "If you can walk, you can Tango".
Everyone who tangos will know the fallacy of the latter statement.
Surely he is simply espousing good coaching in a mainly practice environment rather than out and out teaching?

Yes, it's unfortunate that he spends a lot of time telling us what a good method he has, but spends no time actually describing that method. Apparently, It's A Secret.

Shades of chrisjj, the many dotted one, here but valid nonetheless.
And just like Chris, unfortunately he makes no suggestions how his ideas
can be practically implemented.

Yes - which is why I started this thread, I thought many points were worth debating.

And I think it's best to debate the points, not the man.

 

[JohnEm]

Knowing something of this person, I'd be amazed if there's anyone in London still talking to him, let alone dancing with him.

As an advert and encouragement for his teaching, this site
is more likely to discourage, especially newcomers.

Yes, it's unfortunate that he spends a lot of time telling us what a good method
he has, but spends no time actually describing that method.
Apparently, It's A Secret.

He seems to espouse a personal tuition method, initially based on touch,
and at the same time bewails the lack of English contenders for winning
tango competitions. There is no mention of how he thinks Tango should
be danced other than his rail against steps and the Basic8.

The lesson from Berlin is that we need to, and we can,
create a UK tango culture based on English role models,
English teachers, and, most importantly, modern teaching methods

He wants to teach tango, an old and evolved dance with modern teaching methods
but gives no clue as to what they may be. Modern teaching methods of dance
largely seem to be to crowd as many as people in a room as possible and
teach them moves and/or choreography. Little else can be taught that way.

In the times leading up to and including the Golden Age, my understanding
is that tango was passed on one to one from generation to generation and
from peer to peer. The community was big enough and strong enough to be
self-sustaining. In other words "communities" were not created and
sustained by pedagogues.

 

[bordertangoman]

. Modern teaching methods of dance
largely seem to be to crowd as many as people in a room as possible and
teach them moves and/or choreography. Little else can be taught that way.

.

Wheras BsAs milongas aim to crowd as many people as possible into a room and dance!



maybe thats the fundamental flaw in UK teaching; too much room to move.

My new classes will be in the broom cupboard! :lol:

 

[JohnEm]

My new classes will be in the broom cupboard! :lol:

Talking about cupboards . . I've practised for many an hour in a friend's
quite small kitchen. You might know where the obstacles are but the cupboards
never move out of the way.

 

[v22TTC]

Dave Bailey: "And I think it's best to debate the points, not the man."

Oh... but ad hominem is so much more fun (especially when he seems so full of himself)... spoilsport....

I'd agree that the cabeceo could be an interesting thing to incorporate into a non-beginners' class... though it's a class (which everybody should benefit from), so I hope you'll include some way for the 'less attractive/skilled' students, who are never picked, to also get dancing, and minimise their public embarrassment (assuming a numerical leader/follower imbalance).

Maybe they get the prize of dancing with the teacher/one of his skilled assistants?

I'd also be tempted to add a further condition that modifies the cabeceo way of selection: each selection must be someone you haven't danced with already (within a specified time period) - some people just have an excellent rapport, and synergistically seem much better (ie less needing of correction) than they actually are when together.

But yeah, from reading many of your posts, you seem like an excellent teacher - so I'm sure you already have all of that well in hand.

 

[bordertangoman]

In London of course we have the Cabbie-ceo; which involves gesticulating wildy; raising an umbrella, and shoving your way in front of somenoels doing the say thing...catching a cabbie's eye is unheard of; ( Their training involves the ebility to ignore anyone even if their waving a suitcase of dollars or physically throw themselves in front of the cab)

given this state of things at street level operating a cabaceo is probably going to be as successful as fly-fishing...

 

[JohnEm]

Back to the point then!

What we need is a modern learning model which starts with the embrace . . which enables dancers to emerge . . . which allows the student to develop his or her own tango persona and voice. This model . . is one which encourages students to learn by managed discovery, rather than imitation, with the teacher as facilitator, while the content remains broadly the same . . . What we are told we easily forget, but what we discover for ourselves becomes part of us.

Now we're talking!

It's a method that puts students in charge of their own tango destiny from the moment they walk into their first class, so that first class has to be right. It's a model which requires teachers of tango to professionalize themselves . .

Now he's gone into some fantasy land of tango destiny.
As a beginner you have no idea that there is a destiny or even a journey first.
What does professionalise mean? Like tango perhaps, anything you want it to.

Better if he'd said he wanted teachers to humanise themselves,
to teach individually and dance personally with each and every student.

The tango that we know and love resounds so intently within us because we already have it in our hearts . . . We do not need to import it. Rather we need a teaching method which enables us to find it within ourselves, as all good dancers find their dance, ultimately, within themselves, something which the current model leaves to chance.

Well . . yes. We might have it in our "hearts", but let's hear how he's going
to achieve that for newcomers. And so far I'm unaware of any teaching model
which achieves his aim. We all seem to have to find this individually, and this applied
equally to milongueros/as in the Golden Age. Just read anything about Tete or Ricardo Vidort.

This is the route to achievement, to the beginning of a real tango conversation, and to the foundation of an indigenous and developed tango culture here in the UK. We need teachers who understand this if we are to pursue our own tango destiny, and find and develop our own tango voice, rather than imitate our teachers.

No argument with the sentiment. Now Danny, let's find out how to do it.

It's a route which is well understood in Argentina.

Once upon a time but now?
And earlier on, wasn't he decrying teachers from Argentina?

 

[Dave Bailey]

Dave Bailey: "And I think it's best to debate the points, not the man."

Oh... but ad hominem is so much more fun (especially when he seems so full of himself)... spoilsport....

I just don't think it's appropriate to slag someone off on an internet forum - especially when that person has not got the opportunity to defend themselves.

Plus, blimey, if we started having a go at London teachers, where would we ever stop?

I'd agree that the cabeceo could be an interesting thing to incorporate into a non-beginners' class... though it's a class (which everybody should benefit from), so I hope you'll include some way for the 'less attractive/skilled' students, who are never picked, to also get dancing, and minimise their public embarrassment (assuming a numerical leader/follower imbalance).

Maybe they get the prize of dancing with the teacher/one of his skilled assistants?

Yes, I usually have a couple of Tango Taxis to help out; so far it's usually been even numbers with their assistance. But I don't know that dancing with me is the prize, unless there's a silent "booby"...

I'll have a think about it; I'm intending to do a "Social dancing" section in the workshop, so I'll incorporate that into it.

 

[Dave Bailey]

Back to the point then!

Now we're talking!
...
Now he's gone into some fantasy land of tango destiny.

It's annoying isn't it? Some of the points are excellent, and then he goes off on some sort of hippie nonsense trip...

 

[v22TTC]

Yeah, it's just the obvious and oft-stated points isn't it?:-

The 'Tango' in most new beginners' hearts isn't Tango - it's a TV misrepresentation, and most won't have done any research: they need to be taught/shown what Tango is first (and if it's drop-in classes, then a large number of the students won't come back, in disappointment - especially if they've been forced into 'too much' embracing, too soon, as well);

When academics talk of 'modern', they usually mean 'postmodern(ist)', but rarely know anything about postmodernism (despite slavishly adhering to it), and therefore how to properly apply it: according to its strengths and its dire, dire pitfalls (which must never be recognised, as an article of faith... you have to just be surprised when it all goes wrong - again!, and for exactly the same [predictable] reasons...);

Yes, painters should develop their own style and persona, but should thoroughly understand colour-theory, perspective, composition, 'draftspersonship', and paint-consistency first....

A lot of his ideas seem pretty grand (with a lot of guessing as to the actual application) - but only an idealistic theorist would expect them to work with the brand-newcomers specified.

 

[bordertangoman]

this is on the Tango UK forum too..but not much debate there, yet.....


so what do you do about it?. DB is the Egon Ronay of London Milongas