"Dear Simone"

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#61
I'm sorry but can I just step in here and say, a hell of a lot of italians and eastern europeans emigrated to Argentina before and after WWII. So a Crap load of people are actually 1st or second generation European immigrants. Can we have less illinformed ranting please?

Danny has his own axe to grind and in fact the blessed dotty fruitcake forwarded that blogpost to Tango UK again.

Does it even matter? why is anyone attaching any kind of value or credibility to this? No one in the UK takes him seriously. He might have a couple of good points but they are entirely undermined by the rest.
Who rattled your cage then?

Actually I've no idea who Danny Israel is so don't know what axe
he is grinding or whether he has credibility or not. I thought he might
be advocating a different approach in London to the norm but in the end
it turns out to be a rather awkward and contradictory piece
of self-promotion.

Reading it more closely reveals he is manipulating the appeal of Tango
of the senses into Tango of the visual. Maybe Nuevo without using the name?
He certainly is advocating the development of an English tango but I thought
that already existed as ballroom tango. Each to their own but my goal
remains Argentine Tango.

Danny cites Berlin as an example of a vibrant tango community but this comment
on Tango-L today from Tony Parkes depressingly indicates otherwise:
- if you like nuevo you are in hogs heaven, if you prefer traditional tango
then consider not going, it is extremely thin on the ground to the point
of being non-existent. the only dedicated traditional milonga, the last bastion,
a fortnightly milonga run by chiche a young argentine www.urquiza.com
is spoiled by nuevo dancers and will probably be closing soon

 
#62
I'm sorry but can I just step in here and say, a hell of a lot of italians and eastern europeans emigrated to Argentina before and after WWII. So a Crap load of people are actually 1st or second generation European immigrants. Can we have less illinformed ranting please?
Having informed myself, and quantified the craploads proportionally, the average number of generations appears to be skewed over to the 'few' (ie 3-4) that I mentioned... though I had to make an educated assumption that a generation was 20-25 years, on average, in this case....

Dunno - that's why I asked....
 
#63
It's a discussion piece.

I didn't say I found it credible, just that there are some parts I agree with.
Notwithstanding my rant upthread, I do too.

Needless to say the idea that one doesn't need to be Argentine to be a good teacher serves the guys purposes. I do think it is true, though, and also that it needs to be said. I've seen very good non-Argentine teachers being overlooked and underappreciated because they are not "glamorous" Latino/a types and/or not able to do show-tango. It's a shame.
 
#64
Actually I've no idea who Danny Israel is ......
Reading it more closely reveals he is manipulating the appeal of Tango
of the senses into Tango of the visual. Maybe Nuevo without using the name?
Danny Israel regularly dances downstairs at Negracha, where they dance Nuevo.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#65
Notwithstanding my rant upthread, I do too.

Needless to say the idea that one doesn't need to be Argentine to be a good teacher serves the guys purposes. I do think it is true, though, and also that it needs to be said. I've seen very good non-Argentine teachers being overlooked and underappreciated because they are not "glamorous" Latino/a types and/or not able to do show-tango. It's a shame.
yes; fair curly hair and a common as muck surname and an abscence of ponytail and you get underappreciated by every tom dick and s*****; being the best tango dancer in shropshire ( and possibly Staffordshire too) just means nothing.....

even Bailey(s) is a creamy alkerhollhic drink
 
#66
well for a start the whole "europeans trapped south of the equator" thing. Quite simply, a lot of them are.

anyway I just don't think it's right for people to start slagging people off on anonymous forums. Probably some one will pull out quote from me from ages ago when I've been very pissed off. But if I am trying to do better maybe other people should too.

If you know what you are talking about and have a fair comment to make based on experience and genuine knowledge rather than an unnecessary attack fine. Chris's attacks on people really got me down and I just don't think it is fair to write stuff that will be on the internet forever about a named person. Yeh yeah I know he put himself up for it by self publishing, but can't we all have some dignity?
 

JohnEm

Well-Known Member
#67
anyway I just don't think it's right for people to start slagging people off
on anonymous forums. Probably some one will pull out quote from me
from ages ago when I've been very pissed off. But if I am trying to do
better maybe other people should too.
"We" have been slagging people off! Seems to me you're the one doing that.
And the language falls short of ideal too. DB can stand up for himself but
he is anything but anonymous and I'm only thinly disguised.

If you know what you are talking about and have a fair comment to make based on experience and genuine knowledge rather than an unnecessary attack fine. Chris's attacks on people really got me down and I just don't think it is fair to write stuff that will be on the internet forever about a named person. Yeh yeah I know he put himself up for it by self publishing, but can't we all have some dignity?
I don't recognise unnecessary attacks at all and nothing but reasoned comment.
Genuine knowledge of the article comes from . . . . . . reading the article.

As for dignity, for all we know Danny is smiling now at the publicity
he's receiving! When you self-publicise you put yourself up for critique.
When you provide a service for money you put yourself up for criticism,
as I know from personal experience. If you can't take it, accept and
respond to it appropriately, then your business/service is asking to fail.

And, oh yes! Just to finish here's what you said earlier:
Danny has his own axe to grind and in fact the blessed dotty fruitcake
forwarded that blogpost to Tango UK again.

Does it even matter? why is anyone attaching any kind of value or credibility
to this? No one in the UK takes him seriously. He might have a couple of good points
but they are entirely undermined by the rest.
And you're complaining about personal attacks and the sanctity of
other people's dignity!

I think you're as contradictory as the article being discussed.
 
#68
Needless to say the idea that one doesn't need to be Argentine to be a good teacher serves the guys purposes.
I think you don't have to be Argentine to teach English students. In fact, I think it's an actual disadvantage - it's just that some of the Argentine teachers are so good, they overcome that disadvantage from sheer ability.

I do think it is true, though, and also that it needs to be said. I've seen very good non-Argentine teachers being overlooked and underappreciated because they are not "glamorous" Latino/a types and/or not able to do show-tango. It's a shame.
Unfortunately, it seems that many students want glamour, mystique and aloofness from their teachers. Or, more accurately, those attributes seem to attract students more than - for example - actual record of teaching.

A lot of this game is in the marketing.
 
#72
DB if it was your desire to discuss the topic and not the man why did your link in the OP incude details of the man?
:confused:

It didn't - my OP just linked to the article, and summarised the points... Here's the OP again:

Interesting article here.

To summarize:
1. The standard of dancing in London is rubbish
2. Londoners fetishize BsAs, but there's no real tango in BsAs
3. Argentine teachers are poor.

I agree with some of the points, disagree with others.

What do you lot think?
I didn't even mention the author by name.
 
#74
I think the link was to a page on Danny Israel's website. It was not an article as such.
It's a public letter - the guy clearly wants it to be publicized - he's sent it out several times and has put it on his public site.

I think it's reasonable to comment on this; in fact, I assume he wants people to read and comment on it. So maybe "article" is not completely accurate, but it's at least as valid to comment on it, as on a blog post or similar.

I really have no agenda here, I just thought it was interesting and worth discussing.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#75
I really have no agenda here, I just thought it was interesting and worth discussing.
quite right; teaching tango in the uk has to deal with; cultural norms eg excessive politeness, reticence, body language; masculine feminine dynamics;

people's expectations: the influence of shows etc.

Pedagogy appropriate to people with some or no dance experience
 
#76
It's a public letter - the guy clearly wants it to be publicized - he's sent it out several times and has put it on his public site.

I think it's reasonable to comment on this; in fact, I assume he wants people to read and comment on it. So maybe "article" is not completely accurate, but it's at least as valid to comment on it, as on a blog post or similar.

I really have no agenda here, I just thought it was interesting and worth discussing.
I never suggested you did have an agenda.

I was pointing out that if you present something for discussion that is linked to an individual and if I consider that it is not a serious article but rather a piece of self publication then I feel I should be able to talk about the person as well as the article, especially if I feel what is being said is contradictory.
 

bordertangoman

Well-Known Member
#77
I never suggested you did have an agenda.

I was pointing out that if you present something for discussion that is linked to an individual and if I consider that it is not a serious article but rather a piece of self publication then I feel I should be able to talk about the person as well as the article, especially if I feel what is being said is contradictory.
as long as you are prepared to be hoist by your own petard**








**Injured by the device that you intended to use to injure others.

[size=-2]Origin
The phrase 'hoist with one's own petar[d]' is often cited as 'hoist by one's own petar[d]'. The two forms mean the same, although the former is strictly a more accurate version of the original source. A petard is, or rather was, as they have long since fallen out of use, a small engine of war used to blow breaches in gates or walls. They were originally metallic and bell-shaped but later cubical wooden boxes. Whatever the shape, the significant feature was that they were full of gunpowder - basically what we would now call a bomb.
The device was used by the military forces of all the major European fighting nations by the 16th century. In French and English - petar or petard, and in Spanish and Italian - petardo.
The dictionary maker John Florio defined them like this in 1598:
"Petardo - a squib or petard of gun powder vsed to burst vp gates or doores with."
The French have the word 'péter' - to fart, which it's hard to imagine is unrelated.
Petar was part of the everyday language around that time, as in this rather colourful line from Zackary Coke in his work Logick, 1654:
"The prayers of the Saints ascending with you, will Petarr your entrances through heavens Portcullis".
Once the word is known, 'hoist by your own petard' is easy to fathom. It's nice also to have a definitive source - no less than Shakespeare, who gives the line to Hamlet, 1602:
"For tis the sport to have the enginer Hoist with his owne petar".
Note: engineers were originally constructors of military engines.
[/size]
 
#78
as long as you are prepared to be hoist by your own petard**

**Injured by the device that you intended to use to injure others.
I think that is a reasonable point if I was trying to injure another.

But the advert/article (whatever you wish to call it) raises many issues other than dance issues and IMO as it was put up for discussion then it should have been separated from the writer and/or its context, especially when the person who put it up for discussion wanted it to be discussed as a serious piece.
 
#79
I never suggested you did have an agenda.

I was pointing out that if you present something for discussion that is linked to an individual and if I consider that it is not a serious article but rather a piece of self publication then I feel I should be able to talk about the person as well as the article, especially if I feel what is being said is contradictory.
Fairy Nuff :)

Yes, if someone expresses an opinion, it definitely helps to know something about the person expressing the opinion - it puts context into it. But if you have too much of this, there's a danger of turning the discussion away from the topic, and onto the individual.
 

jfm

Active Member
#80
What would be really nice would be if they got the visiting celebrities to teach the beginners and had the improvers/intermediates class as a technique lesson. Fact is from what I've seen of teaching in London, it's all too fast (presumbly for commercial reasons) and people don't necessarily realise (or rather, don't want to acknowledge ) that they are unable to do fundamental things so is it any wonder that it's all based on selling the punters "steps"?

Followers very much as guilty as leaders. Why are you going to a workshop on ganchos when you can't dissociate?
 

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