Determining skill by watching

..advice I always give to followers is "if you don't know what to do, then do nothing"
Soooo much easier said than done .....works fine...if the guy is doing squirrely things in place, but if you're moving then it just is not possible...

I dont agree Peaches: Not only when a leader does fancy stuff. Standing still always belongs to tango. And in case of the follower: there are other important thinks than adornos. F.I. breathing, snuggeling up, the right hand attitude, and the neck thing.
 
..advice I always give to followers is "if you don't know what to do, then do nothing"
Soooo much easier said than done .....works fine...if the guy is doing squirrely things in place, but if you're moving then it just is not possible...

I dont agree Peaches: Not only when a leader does fancy stuff. Standing still always belongs to tango. And in case of the follower: there are other important thinks than adornos. F.I. breathing, the right hand attitude and the neck thing.
 
The other problem with beginning leaders learning patterns to be more interesting is that then they put their energy into that instead of learning the fundamentals. If I'm doing "boring" basics with a beginner, I can use this time to concentrate on my own technique. If I'm fighting to survive, I'm really getting nothing out of it.
 
I dont agree Peaches: Not only when a leader does fancy stuff. Standing still always belongs to tango. And in case of the follower: there are other important thinks than adornos. F.I. breathing, the right hand attitude and the neck thing.
Um...where did that come from? I'm not talking adornos, and there are times when it.is.impossible.to.stand.still. Try standing still with a leader (attempting) to lead (what you think is probably) a giro, or a boleo, or a cadena, or any number of other things which involve movement across the floor. If you manage to stand still, bad things happen. If he's doing strange things in place and you don't move, god help you if you're not on the foot he thinks you're on--perfect way to get the toe of his shoe jammed into your own unprotected toes.

I'm all with you when it comes to the importance of breathing. I have no clue what you're talking about wrt "right hand attitude" or "the neck thing." And I agree, that standing still is a very important and potentially wonderful part of tango. But that doesn't mean it's really possible to "just do nothing" when you get an unclear lead.
 
Um...where did that come from? I'm not talking adornos, and there are times when it.is.impossible.to.stand.still. Try standing still with a leader (attempting) to lead (what you think is probably) a giro, or a boleo, or a cadena, or any number of other things which involve movement across the floor. If you manage to stand still, bad things happen. If he's doing strange things in place and you don't move, god help you if you're not on the foot he thinks you're on--perfect way to get the toe of his shoe jammed into your own unprotected toes.

I'm all with you when it comes to the importance of breathing. I have no clue what you're talking about wrt "right hand attitude" or "the neck thing." And I agree, that standing still is a very important and potentially wonderful part of tango. But that doesn't mean it's really possible to "just do nothing" when you get an unclear lead.

This I have to agree with. There are many, many times when you can't just stand still, you have to try to go with whatever he's dragging you into.
 
..that doesn't mean it's really possible to "just do nothing" when you get an unclear lead.

To get the things clear: I did not mean any kind of unclear lead, I just meant actively still standing.

..what you're talking about wrt "right hand attitude"...

Sorry, I mixed left with right. In Milonguero style followers often play with their left hand at the neck of the leader, or slip down to his arm. I dont need to tell you. Sorry for confusing.
 
And what, pray, is a follower supposed to do, or how is she supposed to follow, when there isn't anything resembling a clear lead coming from the guy? Relaxing and melding with the music is great and all, but when you're getting no/mixed signals from the guy you've got to do something for the next 12 minutes...like figuring out what he's trying to get you to do, and not getting hurt in the process.
When simply "doing nothing" is really impossible, you can try to mantain frontality, connection, and balance... that's all follower is supposed to do.

If he wanted to do a giro and the giro doesn't come out it's not your problem: playing the game of the guesses is probably less boring, but it doens't help you tu survive the next 12 minutes without getting hurt. If you are really worried for your toes, the only solution is looking down.
 
There are some visual observations one can profit from, although dancing with someone is decisive for me. Some are universal and style-invariant, some are not:

0. The embrace: some embraces simply look painful for me, independent of a particular style. But I'm a leader, so I choose the embrace, more or less. The followers might want to choose something that looks comfortable. Most of them do, here.

1. The facial expression and the whole body of the follower can show relaxation or a certain degree of stress. I admit, it does take a lot of experience to develop the ability to perceive this. This has nothing to do with the potential "bliss" or whatever, because sometimes the music can be so intense that the follower cannot express the bliss she is experiencing. The facial expression can bias the overall observation.

2. Assuming a relaxed follower, the leader will then also seem relaxed and the quality of the lead will express itself through a good musical interpretation, i.e. you will be able to recognize his particular style after a few songs. I've seen many good leaders look... confined... with bad followers. Not beginners, just bad followers. I know a follower who always seems tense... She's not a bad dancer, but some things are impossible to do with her.

<2.5. It boils down to the fact that you can only have a good idea of how good a couple looks like, as someone already pointed out... so it could be that 2. leads to 1. in some cases.>

3. Once relaxed, the moves. Oh yes, is is easier to see the bad dancers who move a lot, but crapily. But also, a wider spectrum of musically used steps/figures/... executed in a visually appealing way shows that the couple has the technique but also feels relaxed and confident enough to use them. (Of course, keeping in mind all the time that those steps are not the point here, but the relaxation and musicality that lead to them.)

4. Last, the musicality. And it is last for me, not because it is not important, but because it is the most important and also most difficult thing to evaluate, being the most subjective of all. And here's my question: Can you let go of your idea of musicality while looking at others? As many couples you can make, that many different musicalities you can get. I keep trying to shake off my own interpretation (the idea of how to dance to a song) while watching others and find it possible, but very hard to do. Listening to comments to someone's dancing, it seems not everyone is aware of this... I hope you'll realize what I'm talking about: "he SO didn't interpret that violin", "what music is he dancing to" or similar. There is a continuum of interpretations out there, for each and every song!

Regardless of the answer to that, it's always nice to see a follower express the layer of music I intentionally left out for her to fill in. I LOVE that.

5. Oh, forgot one thing: the floorcraft. Easy to spot, but mostly attributed to a good leader. However, those "unlead boleos" are a bigger red flag than an occational bump, IMO.

OK, this turned out too long. Sorry if I repeated some things already mentioned, I just wanted to condense my thoughts after looking at the thread for a few days...
 
Quite often I see women with sour facial expressions. Most likely it means that their partner is not paying enough attention to them (read: doing completely his own thing) or that they have real trouble understanding him.

On the other hand, some people dance with "heavenly" faces. They either enjoy dancing altogether, no matter with whom they dance, or there is a true connection between the partners.
 
Quite often I see women with sour facial expressions. Most likely it means that their partner is not paying enough attention to them (read: doing completely his own thing) or that they have real trouble understanding him.

On the other hand, some people dance with "heavenly" faces. They either enjoy dancing altogether, no matter with whom they dance, or there is a true connection between the partners.

of course you can still smile when your partner sticks her heel in your foot....
 
Quite often I see women with sour facial expressions. Most likely it means that their partner is not paying enough attention to them (read: doing completely his own thing) or that they have real trouble understanding him.
Or they're thinking about the chores at home, or they're worried about work, or they're concentrating, or...

On the other hand, some people dance with "heavenly" faces. They either enjoy dancing altogether, no matter with whom they dance, or there is a true connection between the partners.
Or they're pretending. Or they're thinking happy thoughts, or...

Basically, to quote the great Dr Gregory House, "everybody lies".
 
I see dance as body language, which does not lie. Marcel Marceau supposedly said the one human quality he could not portray on stage was a lie.

That cant be true; how does a mime artist convey that he cannot lie?

everything he portrayed wasnt there; so what else is that but a lie?

Andabien I am calling your bluff..:)
 

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