Discipline and Patience

[AndaBien]

I've always though that as well. But I'm not sure that it is true. Millions of people get pleasure out of things they are utterly mediocre at - should we condemn their joie de vivre? I'm not sure that increased expertise leads to increased enjoyment - with a certain mindset it just leads to increased dissatisfaction with oneself and everyone else.
...

It's clearly not true for everybody, but it's true for me. And, I don't condemn anyone for knowing what makes themselves happy and trying to achieve that. After all, that's exactly what I'm doing also.

...They have clearly got their reward/effort ratio beautifully balanced. They don't want to improve enough, otherwise they would.

Of course. People can be known by their actions.

 

[bordertangoman]

I'm not sure that increased expertise leads to increased enjoyment - with a certain mindset it just leads to increased dissatisfaction with oneself and everyone else.

.

I may be falling into that trap.. most of the time I am dancing with followers of lesser quality than myself, maybe there's about a dozen who are good and on par with me, so I dont have an ideal partner- not on a regular basis...

my patience is variable, more so when I'm teaching, but generally I'm an impatient person
and dogged more than disciplined.

 

[AndaBien]

.. most of the time I am dancing with followers of lesser quality than myself, maybe there's about a dozen who are good and on par with me, so I dont have an ideal partner- not on a regular basis...

I'm envious that you have 12 good partners. Maybe I'm just too picky.

 

[nucat78]

I've always though that as well. But I'm not sure that it is true. Millions of people get pleasure out of things they are utterly mediocre at - should we condemn their joie de vivre?
I'm not sure that increased expertise leads to increased enjoyment - with a certain mindset it just leads to increased dissatisfaction with oneself and everyone else.


They have clearly got their reward/effort ratio beautifully balanced. They don't want to improve enough, otherwise they would.

See also JennyIsDancing's thread on "Why don't these people take lessons?" or something like that...

 

[Madahlia]

I may be falling into that trap.. most of the time I am dancing with followers of lesser quality than myself, maybe there's about a dozen who are good and on par with me, so I dont have an ideal partner- not on a regular basis...

If you were to improve significantly it's likely you would then only have 6 followers on a par with you, therefore your tango enjoyment and pleasure would decrease as a direct result of your improvement.....

but generally I'm an impatient person
and dogged more than disciplined.

Discipline, in my view, means continuing with an action even when it is difficult, uncongenial or inconvenient to do so, and believing it is worthwhile even when there is no obvious evidence of this. How is being dogged different?

 

[AndaBien]

If you were to improve significantly it's likely you would then only have 6 followers on a par with you, therefore your tango enjoyment and pleasure would decrease as a direct result of your improvement...

This argument seems based on the idea that quantity is better than quality. It's not a yes-or-no option. I imagine that almost all experienced dancers have chosen not to dance at some time when they could have, because they didn't think it would be worth it; i.e. they took a pass.

 

[nucat78]

I imagine that almost all experienced dancers have chosen not to dance at some time when they could have, because they didn't think it would be worth it; i.e. they took a pass.

+1.

I intensely dislike being a "dance snob" but sometimes dancing is just not enjoyable with certain people. I do make it a point to dance the mixers at BR events though.

 

[jantango]

I had the benefit of dance and musical training from childhood. Nothing came easy for me in life, but everything was easy for my sisters. I knew I had to work for anything I wanted to achieve. Discipline and practice were early lessons for me in life. I never excelled in anything, but I learned that doing the best I could was good enough for me.

Classes don't guarantee improvement in anything. The desire has to come from within.

We have to dance our own dance; not what others expect from us. Either one dances or they don't. It's not about levels. It's what comes from inside you.

 

[bordertangoman]

If you were to improve significantly it's likely you would then only have 6 followers on a par with you, therefore your tango enjoyment and pleasure would decrease as a direct result of your improvement.....

Discipline, in my view, means continuing with an action even when it is difficult, uncongenial or inconvenient to do so, and believing it is worthwhile even when there is no obvious evidence of this. How is being dogged different?

I think discipline is more structured; dogged can be a more erratic

 

[Peaches]

I've always though that as well. But I'm not sure that it is true. Millions of people get pleasure out of things they are utterly mediocre at - should we condemn their joie de vivre?
I'm not sure that increased expertise leads to increased enjoyment - with a certain mindset it just leads to increased dissatisfaction with oneself and everyone else.

You've hit the nail on the head.

I am mediocre at best at dancing. I still love it, and it still makes me extremely happy. It is what it is for me; if I don't live up to someone else's standards...well, not my problem.

That said, as I have improved I find it harder and harder to have a good time social dancing. Part of that is not being asked to dance by the (rumored to be) good leaders in the area, which probably goes back to my not being the best dancer out there. Shrug. But I find less and less satisfaction dancing with the men who do ask me. I get the quality over quantity thing, but when I drive an hour+ each way to go dancing...and then don't dance as much as I'd like and not with leaders who interest me any longer...well, it explains why I'm shifting focus to WCS.

 

[LittleLight]

If with "mediocre" means "I will never be a truly great dancer, but I still enjoy dancing and improving as best as I can", then I agree. Also if this means that I won't necessarily spend every last hour and penny on workshops and practicas. It can be just hobby - hard to believe, I know.

However, when I first started there was a class on a pay-as-you-go basis and some people (beginners) would come for a two or three lessons, then stay away for a month, not go to practicas or do anything else about it, and then come back for one or two more etc etc, rinse and repeat. And they would never get anywhere at all. And that does baffle me. I would either want to commit to learning something or decide it wasn't for me and go do something else.

 

[Ray Sison]

In talking with tango students I have noticed commonality with those who have stuck with it until they've developed some degree of ability, and those who pursued some activity as a child that required discipline and patience. It could have been music lessons, team sports, juggling, or many other things. I wonder if that experience taught them that good results could sometimes be achieved over a long time if they stuck with it and made incremental progress.

Any comments or personal experiences?

I had music lessons starting in 4th grade.

These are important in practically any endeavor that is worthwhile, which cannot be achieved "overnight". This includes dance, so the activities that helped you develop discipline and patience as a child definitely can help you as an adult studying dance--which requires time and effort to gain some competence...

 

[tangomonkey]

I became interested in music when I was 8. I have a degree in musicology (music history and theory) and my instrument is guitar (piano minor). I am analytical, sometimes to my detriment. Patience - well, not so much...

My careers have ranged from musician, business owner, to trader (stock/futures/currencies/bonds -the current and probably last one)

I go from being extremely disciplined (my wife would say OCD) to indifferent in most things I do. For me, tango is a love-hate relationship (mostly love). Sometimes I devote hours per week to it and other times I go weeks without giving it much attention. That happens after I've had a bad lesson/class or tanda. I really dislike lessons and dances that don't go well. I eventually sit myself down and focus on what went wrong and fix it. But not before I get somewhat depressed about it all. That's how I am with most things - always have been, always will be...

 

[Angel HI]

What is coming over to me is not that AT is attractive because of challenge. It's that the people who persist have a natural advantage in the form of intelligence or physical aptitude, if not both.

I do not know what this means exactly; I certainly didn't insinuate it... hopefully. I think there are many who believe themselves to be of some superior something or another, but of course that's BS, and certainly not me.

Personally, I will only persist at an activity if the rewards seem greater than the effort put in. And the reward of tango is pleasure, not challenge.

Agreed, 100%

Nothing came easy for me in life, but everything was easy for my sisters. I knew I had to work for anything I wanted to achieve. Discipline and practice were early lessons for me in life. I never excelled in anything, but I learned that doing the best I could was good enough for me.

Thanks for sharing... explains many of your posts.

Classes don't guarantee improvement in anything. The desire has to come from within.

We have to dance our own dance; not what others expect from us. It's not about levels.

So very well said.

 

[nucat78]

However, when I first started there was a class on a pay-as-you-go basis and some people (beginners) would come for a two or three lessons, then stay away for a month, not go to practicas or do anything else about it, and then come back for one or two more etc etc, rinse and repeat. And they would never get anywhere at all. And that does baffle me. I would either want to commit to learning something or decide it wasn't for me and go do something else.

Understood, but life can get in the way - work issues, illness, family issues, budget issues can take one away from dance, unless perhaps one is a dance teacher or paid performer.

And then there are what I consider the four broad classes of (non-pro) dancers:

• Dabblers
• Social-only (good enough) dancers
• Non-competitors who nonetheless strive toward competitive / expert quality / knowledge
• Competitors

Maybe the people you write about are in the dabbler class.