Discipline and Patience

jantango said:
Classes don't guarantee improvement in anything. The desire has to come from within.

We have to dance our own dance; not what others expect from us. Either one dances or they don't. It's not about levels. It's what comes from inside you.
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IMO, this post is right on the money.

:cheers:

However, I just can't help noticing that it appears to contradict so many of your other posts (about what is tango, what should be done in a performance, etc).

Maybe some day, you'll share with us how you feel, dancing your own dance, can co-exist with following rigid rules.
 
dchester said:
However, I just can't help noticing that it appears to contradict so many of your other posts (about what is tango, what should be done in a performance, etc).

Maybe some day, you'll share with us how you feel, dancing your own dance, can co-exist with following rigid rules.
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I would welcome enlightenment on apparently having it both ways. Seriously.
 
Peaches said:
You can have any color you want, so long as it's black.
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I see a red door and I want it painted black

We have to dance our own dance; not what others expect from us. It's not about levels.It's not about levels. It's what comes from inside you.
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I dont see how that works for followers; you are having to dance whatever the leader leads, and I think the dancers with most imagination flair and creativity are not necessarily the best social dancers.
 
nucat78 said:
And then there are what I consider the four broad classes of (non-pro) dancers:

  • Dabblers
  • Social-only (good enough) dancers
  • Non-competitors who nonetheless strive toward competitive / expert quality / knowledge
  • Competitors
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Why such emphasis on competition as a measure of quality? :confused:
 
nucat78 said:
And then there are what I consider the four broad classes of (non-pro) dancers:

  • Dabblers
  • Social-only (good enough) dancers
  • Non-competitors who nonetheless strive toward competitive / expert quality / knowledge
  • Competitors
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Dabbler here. I'd never say that I'm good enough, nor that I strive towards competitive quality.
 
bordertangoman said:
We have to dance our own dance; not what others expect from us. It's not about levels.It's not about levels. It's what comes from inside you.
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I dont see how that works for followers; you are having to dance whatever the leader leads, and I think the dancers with most imagination flair and creativity are not necessarily the best social dancers.
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There is a philosophy of leading and following (not one I subscribe to, but it exists), where the concept of lead and follow is more blurred. I've heard it described as a dialog, an equal partnership, or other things, where the man proposes (rather than leads) a step, and the women is free to accept or ignore the proposal, and counter with something else, which the man then has to deal with (follow).

I agree with you though, that followers who hijack the lead (whether to change the steps or the rhythm), can be be difficult to deal with. Earlier in my tango development, I always assumed that my lead wasn't clear enough, when things like this happened. Now I'm a little quicker at figuring out that she didn't really care what I lead, and simply wanted to do her own thing.

To be honest, I've only had one really memorable (in a good way) tanda with a follower who did this (and in fact she was so good, that I was anxiously looking forward to what she was going to do next), since her stuff was better than what I was going to lead. Of course, she might have simply been bored to death with what I was doing, in the first place (she was so much better than me, where I wouldn't doubt it).
 
I once attended a workshop by dutch teachers (Vos and Wiemer I think) who explained that the dance is boring if the guy leads all the time, and more interesting if from time to time during the dance, the follower takes the lead during 16 beats or more. Not only doing her own steps but also leading the steps of the man. And without changing the abrazo, and without making the change noticeable from the outside.
It failed to convince me, but, who knows, maybe it is the future of tango.
 
newbie said:
I once attended a workshop by dutch teachers (Vos and Wiemer I think) who explained that the dance is boring if the guy leads all the time, and more interesting if from time to time during the dance, the follower takes the lead during 16 beats or more. Not only doing her own steps but also leading the steps of the man. And without changing the abrazo, and without making the change noticeable from the outside.
It failed to convince me, but, who knows, maybe it is the future of tango.
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I have danced with only one lady who made me feel that I was following her. It's weird, because she wasn't really back-leading or ignoring my lead, but somehow (and I honestly can't explain how), I was felt that the dance was indeed a dialog. I think most of it was because she was fully engaged with the music and fully engaged in the embrace. And as dchester pointed, it might have been just because I was at a much lower level at the time.
 
dchester said:
There is a philosophy of leading and following (not one I subscribe to, but it exists), where the concept of lead and follow is more blurred. I've heard it described as a dialog, an equal partnership, or other things, where the man proposes (rather than leads) a step, and the women is free to accept or ignore the proposal, and counter with something else, which the man then has to deal with (follow).

I agree with you though, that followers who hijack the lead (whether to change the steps or the rhythm), can be be difficult to deal with. Earlier in my tango development, I always assumed that my lead wasn't clear enough, when things like this happened. Now I'm a little quicker at figuring out that she didn't really care what I lead, and simply wanted to do her own thing.

To be honest, I've only had one really memorable (in a good way) tanda with a follower who did this (and in fact she was so good, that I was anxiously looking forward to what she was going to do next), since her stuff was better than what I was going to lead. Of course, she might have simply been bored to death with what I was doing, in the first place (she was so much better than me, where I wouldn't doubt it).
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I agree this happens and its nice when it does, but most women are sheep, pretty, elegant, even musical but still sheep ;) *








*(One or two might be wolves in sheep's clothing)
 
bordertangoman said:
I agree this happens and its nice when it does, but most women are sheep, pretty, elegant, even musical but still sheep ;) *


*(One or two might be wolves in sheep's clothing)
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I don't know about the sheep thing, but I think more people prefer to get good at the traditional men's and women's parts rather than mixing it all up, which gets too confusing.
 
newbie said:
I once attended a workshop by dutch teachers (Vos and Wiemer I think) who explained that the dance is boring if the guy leads all the time, and more interesting if from time to time during the dance, the follower takes the lead during 16 beats or more. Not only doing her own steps but also leading the steps of the man. And without changing the abrazo, and without making the change noticeable from the outside.
It failed to convince me, but, who knows, maybe it is the future of tango.
Click to expand...
I've done a workshop like that - again with Dutch teachers. I think it was a couple of guy teachers, so they may have had a different perspective... Ah, yes, here's the review (it helps that I write everything down :) )

It was a "Leader and Follower" class by Eric Rainer-Vehrs and Paul Vosse. Are these the same guys?
 
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