Do do we ever pay off the debt?

[opendoor]

..Sometimes I watch my leader and think - this is totally unfair. Why is he barely moving and I'm drenched in sweat?

But that's a matter of style. In "en linea" the leader, by definition, stands in the surf and lets the followers whirl around him like a bouncy ball. That's not the case in Cuban salsa. You can choose the dance style somewhat based on the music played; if it's Cuban salsa, the leader has to sweat; if it's Puerto Rican or New York music, then you have to deliver.

 

[Rabbit]

Albeit, the role of the follow is to be the picture to his frame, he can at least take a step in some sort of direction - occasionally and try not hurt me.

In general I don't see why the follower should do all the work (or have all the fun, depending on your point of view) whether it's in tango, salsa, or anything else

 

[brujo]

Unfortunately salsa demands a lot of athleticism from the followers than from the leaders. Most leaders in salsa tend to dance physically than musically. Many leaders in salsa won’t even step.

This is unfortunately true but a consequence of the way a lot of salsa is taught in the US. When most classes are about repeating a pattern the teachers just come up with more and more complex patterns. The footwork in Colombian salsa is exhausting for a US salsa dancer the first time you encounter it because leads are not used to it. A lot of men are drawn to salsa for its showiness rather than the connection. A lot of the cool subtle stuff like Afro Cuban movement, pachanga, etc are just abandoned for more spins. Cuban salsa is heavily Rueda focused.

It’s really interesting to me being part of the fusion scene because when you talk to people they also tend to explore a lot of other dances. Salsa almost always comes up as a dance they start with but then drift away from. A lot of people also hate bachata ( both sensual and traditional ) because of the immediate way in which the close connection is forced on you —- I don’t want to dance that close to a stranger. I think Tango’s progression from an open embrace to a close embrace later the way it is taught mostly now helps it in that sense.

The zouk scene is tiny but super attractive to fusion dancers because of their focus on connection and a lot of the young folks that do more active sweat drench dances like Lindy gravitate to it. Blues or balboa as well.

West Coast Swing has had a lot of attention due to social media videos and you see a lot of interest there as well. It feels like twenty years ago the people that wanted less active dances would gravitate to tango just as it was hitting a wave of popularity with growing community and tons of good teachers. But now the community has aged out a bit and a lot of folks in their 20s and 30s are gravitating to blues / fusion / zouk / west coast when seeking dances that are less spins and more hugs.

Weirdly enough, a lot of the teachers you run into here have extensive tango training but you never see them at milongas or practicas. They just don’t vibe with the current scene.

 

[fiesta0618]

On this topic, think it's also relevant to mention that, for some (many?) men, partner dancing as a leader exercises a power fantasy. You get to exert control over multiple followers (i.e., women) with their willing consent.

In that regard, it isn't terribly important to them if they ever get to "shine." Because they get their kicks by telling a woman to do something fancy, and seeing her enthusiastically do it.

I would argue that the comparative dullness of the leader's role in many partnered styles can be attributed to this. Compare to solo styles that men engage in, like hip hop or breaking, where there is just as much flash for men as for women.

 

[Pryn]

But that's a matter of style. In "en linea" the leader, by definition, stands in the surf and lets the followers whirl around him like a bouncy ball. That's not the case in Cuban salsa. You can choose the dance style somewhat based on the music played; if it's Cuban salsa, the leader has to sweat; if it's Puerto Rican or New York music, then you have to deliver.

In my experience, it more leader dependent.

I've danced with active cuban salsa leaders and very chill ones. I've had some who dance almost on the spot and whip me around them - to leaders who go for a larger radius and big shines (where people moved out of the way to give us space) and he is breaking a sweat. Same with leaders who dance "en linea". Some stay strictly in line and remain very chill, while others try to fly across the room.

A leader who wants to make their follow do big & flashy work will do so, regardless of his preferred salsa type.

 

[brujo]

On this topic, think it's also relevant to mention that, for some (many?) men, partner dancing as a leader exercises a power fantasy. You get to exert control over multiple followers (i.e., women) with their willing consent.

It’s one of the few places we can still mansplain without being judged bro

 

[Miradamiranda]

Actually I think it is friendly when the ratio of tourists to locals is lower.

If I had a local crowded milonga where 50 random new people showed up each week most of whom I'd never see again, I'd be selective too

That’s not my experience. My local scene has a LOT of people passing through, or people coming once every month or two or once a year. I think it’s exactly because there are so many fresh faces every week that we locals go out of our way to dance with them. Most are really good! With locals-only milongas, you get habits with which people you do or don’t dance with, obligations or even baggage from a once missed cabeceo that was interpreted as a forever-no.

 

[opendoor]

..they get their kicks by telling a woman to do something fancy.. the comparative dullness of the leader's role in many partnered styles can be attributed to this..

In tango, it's more nuanced. In the Villa Urquiza style, the leader wants to shine, with leader's saccadas, leader's boleos, and enrosques. In the milonguero style, the followers are allowed to attract more attention. In stage tango, however, the roles are more equally distributed.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Unfortunately salsa demands a lot of athleticism from the followers than from the leaders. Most leaders in salsa tend to dance physically than musically. Many leaders in salsa won’t even step. The follower doesn’t have that luxury. This can wear out followers as leader after leader is putting them through wringer. Especially when they realise follower is a good dancer. They will try to throw kitchen sink of moves they know at her. Whether they have mastered leading them or not.

This! My salsa style is very athletic and yes the guys half my age would put me through everything as fast and fancy as possible, spinning me out of the wazoo over and over. Anything less than a quadruple spin would be barely called spinning. I was even nicknamed the ‘spinning queen’ of my scene. One reason why I stopped going (in addition to tango stealing my heart), was physical. Not a lack of athleticism but I had a whiplash from dancing with someone who forced a dip on me, and I suffered for several years with my neck and alignment that would get shifted from the centrifugal forces of so much repeated spinning.

When I started tango I was however missing a bit the athleticism of salsa. That my heart rate would be up and I’d be drenched in sweat halfway through the first song.

I lead well in salsa, and boy, the demands are a lot less physically. It’s a walk in the park compared to following salsa. If there’s an extended salsa cortina where people are dancing, I go hide away because I don’t want to encourage the non tango dancing, and also the demands for attire and hair are completely different. But if one of the tangeras who wants to dance salsa comes running to me to lead her, I’ll oblige and barely break a sweat. It’s funnily the opposite in tango, where I feel leading is physically more of an effort.

 

[tangoing]

For BsAs' locals, or for visitors? Like a French waiter dealing with English and US visitors in Paris?

Many milongas internationally have moved beyond the 'authentic' myth of BsAs, unless playing some retro game. Many of us aren't even going to visit BsAs.

Both. I know argentines who used to dance tango but quit since it’s unfriendly lol.

 

[tangoing]

Actually I think it is friendly when the ratio of tourists to locals is lower.

If I had a local crowded milonga where 50 random new people showed up each week most of whom I'd never see again, I'd be selective too

Yes i’ve been during their winter, it’s still less friendly compared to other dances. I mean part of it is due to the nature of the dance itself (being stuck with someone for 3-4 songs with no independent movement)

 

[brujo]

When I started tango I was however missing a bit the athleticism of salsa.

I sure don’t miss the idiots that try stuff like this in a bar on a crowded dance floor.

 

[Bailango]

Many milongas internationally have moved beyond the 'authentic' myth of BsAs, unless playing some retro game. Many of us aren't even going to visit BsAs.

I truly wonder how many care or believe the myth. Except for fractionally small minority and those who are new to tango, I doubt anyone believes the myth. Esp those who have been to BsAs.

BsAs itself had so many different types of milongas.

I don’t believe in discarding all the traditions of AT. That would only leave it sterile. The traditions that are practical and work include maintaining a well functioning Ronda, leader’s cabaceo when entering the Ronda, practicas, no overtaking (with caveats), to name a few.

 

[Bailango]

You'll hold that against me for the rest of my life.

No I am not holding it against you. It is an anomaly, that’s all. I do believe you found salsa difficult. Especially if you are music-first than dance-first, salsa with its polyrhythms can be difficult. Many salsa musicians find it difficult to dance and maintain consistent timing when dancing.

Maybe I'll find something else to rub your nose in, high Voleos? Colgadas, by chance?

Volcadas! I can’t seem to be able to lead them on the dance floor

But you know I've successfully cleared the salsa hurdle. And I did it by way of playing music.

So I was kinda right above.

And if we apply that criterion, maybe we can reach an agreement. And now, just to annoy you, I find European bachata sensual much more original than the so-called authentic bachata dominicana, which is currently experiencing a renaissance

LOL. Problem with calling anything authentic is trying define something in a narrow box. That doesn’t work for any dance. Any given time people might be dancing different interpretations.

But European bachata sensual is a different animal that so happens to have the name bachata attached to it it is more zouk than bachata. And music is all pop with remix. That is like urban kizomba people calling their dance urban tango.

 

[Brummbaer]

---

Yes i’ve been during their winter, it’s still less friendly compared to other dances. I mean part of it is due to the nature of the dance itself (being stuck with someone for 3-4 songs with no independent movement)

We usually just have 3-song tandas. Speed-tandas (2 songs) have also been popular in some AT scenes. But, if they play the 'authenticity' card, it has to be 4 (and they're usually less friendly).

The age demographic also has an impact together with number of couples. If younger (and solo), I wouldn't choose AT for its social scene, although some do try hard.

However, once in, it's ok. And, I guess that's where you also 'pay forward' socially by being friendly/sociable with someone. It's not just about cabeceo and getting a tanda in some retro game!

I don’t believe in discarding all the traditions of AT. That would only leave it sterile. The traditions that are practical and work include maintaining a well functioning Ronda, leader’s cabaceo when entering the Ronda, practicas, no overtaking (with caveats), to name a few.

Milongas aren't homogenous. I think, over time, some 'traditions', once perhaps considered 'cute', have slipped away to deal with the real, and different, non-BsAs environment.

Some 'traditions' are just respectful courtesy - and, as you say, practical! Yes, some check before entering the ronda; others barge in. Some hold up the ronda; others move when there's space. Some (ah, London! But also some 'festivals' with 'hotshots'!) have no floorcraft. Prácticas? Usually an informal milonga.

The underlying reason - there aren't hordes of young males turning up looking to find the love of their life via a dance, and showing their skills! It's become something else where the old 'rules' get bent to suit.