Do women and men want the same thing from tango?

I rarely dance with unfamiliar women who I have not already seen dancing. If I haven't seen them dance close embrace, I don't ask them. True, I miss out on some fine partners, but I'm a close embrace dancer.
Although I dance close embrace (I've spent far more hours on close embrace privates than any other style!!), I seldom ask a woman to dance who I haven't seen do at least simple puentes, small (nearly vertical), easy (rt foot standing, left sweeping) volcadas, and very small lean-angle (nearly vertical) colgadas. The issue for me is that I sometimes feel these in the music and have on several occasions inadvertently(?) led women to do these, safely, with plenty of space for I was leading, and with no interference with any other, and received tongue lashings. They just didn't want to do them, or felt that they were only for show, or something else. OK. I heard you, and I respect you, and I won't dance with you.
 
So I was talking to an Argentinian teacher recently, and she said that the leader chooses the style of the dance. Close embrace, open embrace, or dynamic... flashy or not flashy
Chooses the style of dance, maybe, but embrace?...
Traditionally, at mainstream milongas in BA, there is only one embrace - close. If a woman accepts an invitation from a man, she must be prepared to dance with him in close embrace. If she does not want to dance close to him, she will ignore his cabeceo.
In Europe, you can't break the rules because there are none. Dancers make up as they go along, and men and women have equal say. So I would stongly disagree with the quote above about the embrace. Strange to hear this from an Argentinian teacher but on the other hand there are dozens of Argentinian teachers who never set a foot in a milonga.
 
Wow, that's interesting! So club style is the only surviving form of tango in Argentina? I'll be sure to let the people who practice salon to stop.
 
Temza said:
Chooses the style of dance, maybe, but embrace?...
Traditionally, at mainstream milongas in BA, there is only one embrace - close. If a woman accepts an invitation from a man, she must be prepared to dance with him in close embrace. If she does not want to dance close to him, she will ignore his cabeceo.
In Europe, you can't break the rules because there are none. Dancers make up as they go along, and men and women have equal say. So I would stongly disagree with the quote above about the embrace. Strange to hear this from an Argentinian teacher but on the other hand there are dozens of Argentinian teachers who never set a foot in a milonga.

I'm pretty sure I know just who Sub asked about the embrace, and if I'm correct, I've heard the same teacher say the same thing. If I'm correct, she has been in Argentine milongas and knows quite well the rules and traditions of BsAs. It certainly isn't a case of a teacher spouting off without knowing what she's talking about, and using their Argentine background to lend an air of credibility.

If I'm wrong about who Sub was talking to, I know of another Argentine teacher--well qualified--who has said the exact same thing. And I've heard it from others. Suffice it to say, there are definitely multiple minds about this topic.

I think it comes down to how traditionally someone thinks about the roles in the dance. For the teacher in question, she takes a very traditional view. The man is, without question, in charge of the dance. He sets the style, he sets the embrace, and the woman must adapt to him and find a way to express herself within those "confines." Other people take the view of a more equal partnership. *shrug* So long as it works for people, who cares?
 
So I was talking to an Argentinian teacher recently, and she said that the leader chooses the style of the dance. Close embrace, open embrace, or dynamic... flashy or not flashy. The leader chooses based on what they feel in the music, and the style which THEY are most adept at. When you are dancing, you are supposed to give the follower your best. If your partner doesn't like your best, then you find one that does. :) You can't please everyone.

I would like to point out that this is to be read as a whole, the first phrase « the leader chooses the style of the dance. Close embrace, open embrace, or dynamic... flashy or not flashy. » is explained by the following phrase « The leader chooses based on what they feel in the music, and the style which THEY are most adept at. »

« the style which THEY are most adept at »

So this is not an arbitrary choice but a matter of skills.
If a leader is crap at close embrace and good at open embrace, and the follower has a preference for close embrace, does she still prefer this leader to try to dance in close embrace? If this is the case, why not. But if the leader dances in a way he is good at, he will be more able to adapt to the follower.
It's a bit like the situation between an advanced leader with a beginner follower and a beginner leader with an advanced follower, isn't the first one a better case?

« The leader chooses based on what they feel in the music »

I find that the leader's responsability in music interpretation is greater in AT than in other dances (where at worst you can just do a sequence of moves, and where the moves have a preset timing), the music will shape the dance and the dance will feel better if it matches what the leader feels in the music (because the leader has to choose what and how, direction, amplitude, speed, acceleration, timing, etc…).
Sometimes if not much inspired by the music, I would like to tell my partner, hey let's exchange roles take the lead in music interpretation and I will try to follow your proposal.

Of course there is also the feel (through the connection) from and with the partner and it feels better if the two « sont sur la même longueur d'onde » (litt. « are on the same wavelength ») (translation? Angel HI?), « en phase », so you will try to achieve that.

« flashy or not flashy »

Don't forget the other couples on the dancefloor, and you don't dance AT to show off, do you? Or maybe your partner doesn't want to show off.
And I'm not sure technical ability and musical interpretation need "flashy", so if one partner doesn't wish "flashy" don't go for it.


I see dancing with someone as an agreement, something two persons agree to do together (and which is supposed to have a positive effect on each), so I also see the initial choice of embrace as an agreement.

I think that leading and following are two different roles but of equal stature, there might be reasons hinted above to let some choices to the leader, but why not learn both roles and exchange them from time to time?


« If your partner doesn't like your best, then you find one that does »

Somehow I read this phrase as « If your partner doesn't like your way of dancing, then you find one that does », it's not that you don't care about what the partner likes and don't try to adapt to it, but why not try to find someone who is pleased to dance with you the way you feel to dance?
 
.....
Somehow I read this phrase as « If your partner doesn't like your way of dancing, then you find one that does », it's not that you don't care about what the partner likes and don't try to adapt to it, but why not try to find someone who is pleased to dance with you the way you feel to dance?
I absolutely agree. My intent at a milonga is NOT to dance with just whoever is there, and I especially feel no obligation to dance with a woman just because she is sitting a lot. At a milonga, I am only interested in dancing with the women that do/might enjoy dancing with me in the style(s) that I love/am good at. This is related to the "no teaching at a milonga" rule. It isn't the time to try to work out major differences between people's dancing.

A practica is a whole different matter.
 
I rarely dance with unfamiliar women who I have not already seen dancing. If I haven't seen them dance close embrace, I don't ask them. True, I miss out on some fine partners, but I'm a close embrace dancer.


This might make sense in a tango environment where there is a good mix of people. But in a number of the practicas/milongas around here, until recently you would have avoided asking me to dance because you might be one of the only close embrace dancers in the community. Even though I learned close embrace first and feel adept at it, and appreciate it, if you waited to see me do it with someone else, you might not ever see it.

So if you are going to use this rule, please pay attention also to what the leaders are typically doing.. If you don't see a follower dancing close embrace, but the leaders don't seem to be dancing close with ANYONE (not just her), maybe you are cheating yourself out of someone who desperately wishes to dance with YOU for exactly that reason!
 
I have been very quiet as of late, but in this agree. I see nothing wrong w/ the orig. post, but have noted that most of the ones to follow have dealt with 'what' everyone will do, rather than 'how'. It is this that I believe is the OP's point, and the more important issue.

Amps had it right in his post of yesterday; simply... it's all about her. Make your partner feel great in the dance, and you are a great dancer.

The "Its all about her" rule is a great one for leaders, but when followers believe its always about them, then you can end up with problems. Followers need to go by your last statement (everyone does, actually) "Make your partner feel great in the dance." In fact, there is no excuse for making your partner feel anything BUT great whether you are the follower or the leader.

But I'd hate to see followers adopting an "Its all about ME" attitude.
 
Just to add a random observation... maybe add some fuel to the fire... ;)

So I was talking to an Argentinian teacher recently, and she said that the leader chooses the style of the dance. Close embrace, open embrace, or dynamic... flashy or not flashy. The leader chooses based on what they feel in the music, and the style which THEY are most adept at. When you are dancing, you are supposed to give the follower your best. If your partner doesn't like your best, then you find one that does. :) You can't please everyone.

I think in reality, regardless of what "philosophy" or rule people think is correct, the style is ultimately chosen by the more sought after partner.

If a leader really wants to dance with a woman he sees, he's likely to go learn how to dance what he sees her doing. If a follower really wants to dance with a leader she sees, the same thing applies.

I tell follower students that around here, unless they want to sit for most of the night, they better learn as many styles as they can. Leaders can settle on a style they are most comfortable with and do only that and still have plenty of partners. Only a few guys vary their style/embrace much, and I'm not so sure they decide based on who they are dancing with, but on what moves they want to do based on the music.

Even those guys seem to use primarily open embrace with an occasional closing. A few guys do ONLY close. The followers around here are generally more adept at variety than the leaders, and I think its simply a "numbers game."
 
I rarely dance with unfamiliar women who I have not already seen dancing. If I haven't seen them dance close embrace, I don't ask them. True, I miss out on some fine partners, but I'm a close embrace dancer.
I agree with this approach 1000%. it's called 'survival' in an open-hold Amerika. It's also called 'enjoying' the night instead of having a lot of confusing dances drag you down and eventually degrading your technique.
Yes, keep being VERY picky as to with whom you dance and with two good tandas a night you will feel great...with three, you will be flying for days!
With a woman who can really follow in close embrace, miracles can happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKizat-nfMo
..don't settle for less. (unless she is also commited to the close embrace dance)
 
Followers need to go by your last statement (everyone does, actually) "Make your partner feel great in the dance." In fact, there is no excuse for making your partner feel anything BUT great whether you are the follower or the leader.

But I'd hate to see followers adopting an "Its all about ME" attitude.
Agreed. It was definitely the intent of that last statement to apply it to both partners. I always tell ladies who give me that just lead... I'll follow crap, that I do not wish to dance for them; I wish to dance with them. I do believe that they have a responsibility to the dance.
 

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