Embrace...open or close?

[Brummbaer]

if that kind of contact is ok, the swing dancers might work

Most partner dances involve contact to some degree. Maybe some old folk dances, or some more formal dance from a more restrictive era. Tango, tagor, ergo sum - no, not the origin of 'tango', just Latin for "I touch, I am touched, so I am". Most people desire touch to a degree, but then we all have our personal space, which varies between cultures.

If 'touch' is a problem, then you'd have to be highly selective about dances. Social Argentine Tango is just intimate.

 

[Brummbaer]

other types of play

I'd come across the 'statutory' number of taps during a passada, but this seems another level

 

[opendoor]

..Social Argentine Tango is just intimate.

But not tango escenario à la Copes, compare

 

[opendoor]

..have links to workshops, videos..

(sorry, on vacation right now, can't search)
I associate the caress of my neck with my first visit of a big milonga, many years ago. My buddies said, you must dance with M., she's a real porteña. If you've danced with M., you know how tango really feels. So I asked M. It was horrible, since then I haven't actually danced with porteñas anymore. But the long-distance judgement of that tanda was exactly the opposite. That looked so great, the buddies shouted. They particularly liked the fact that M. demonstratively caressed my neck and played around at my back during di Sarli's legato passages. It must have looked similar to what Maria Plazola once was doing with her left hand at 1:19.

..related to syncopation, 3-3-2 and other types..

Oh no, that would have meant slaps in the neck

 

[Brummbaer]

But not tango escenario à la Copes, compare

Yeah, that was the 1970s promoting their show.

I did say 'social'! But you're right, it varies. You could even go back to some of those old Pathe films of the 1920s for a very staid performance from our perspective, but shocking at the time.

I suppose we've got to blame Susana Miller for her promotion of her version of 'real' AT outside BsAs. Maybe it's become more intimate; maybe less.

My general point remains: that's how it's mostly interpreted now, so you have to manage that. We tend, for obvious reasons, to see that from a leader's perspective. Thanks @noobster for your input, but it would be good to get more input on the follower's perspective.

 

[flandrienne]

As an intermediate follower, I think I land somewhere in between depending on what I feel every specific leader seems to like. Usually in the first song of the tanda I’m looking for the right distance, usually moving a bit closer for the second. But I’ve definitely been non-verbally rebuffed a couple of times. In my class my partner and I are the only ones that dance close.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

Agreed, Elian and welcome to DF. Only want to add that I usually dance with my right hand on the right shoulder blade of a follower. Sebastián Arce called that hold "deep embrance". I find it very comfortable.

This kind of hold is what the "milongueros viejos" in Buenos Aires do. I learned it on my visit to BA in 2017. They actually go beyond the follower's right shoulder blade, right into her armpit, or as close as possible (depending on how wide the lady is). Today I only dance that way.

 

[Brummbaer]

Today I only dance that way.

Is that with a specific, limited, set of followers who also subscribe to that (which wasn't universal in BsAs)? Do you avoid/reject, say, beginners, who might prefer 'open'? Or more advanced dancers who prefer other styles of 'close'?

I accept that which you describe is a perfectly valid close style, but really wondering how followers react if it's not their preference.

 

[opendoor]

..wondering how followers react if it's not their preference..

That doesn't exist, everyone wants to dance with Reuven like that. I can attest to that.

 

[Brummbaer]

That doesn't exist, everyone wants to dance with Reuven like that. I can attest to that.

Of course, those who don't dance like that aren't real tangueras, or it's not a real milonga

We need some more follower input to support that thesis.

 

[Reuven Thetanguero]

Is that with a specific, limited, set of followers who also subscribe to that (which wasn't universal in BsAs)? Do you avoid/reject, say, beginners, who might prefer 'open'? Or more advanced dancers who prefer other styles of 'close'?

I accept that which you describe is a perfectly valid close style, but really wondering how followers react if it's not their preference.

As always, you have good and valid questions.
in the past 10 years or so, I had only one lady who didn't want to dance in a close embrace. I apologized and told her that I am not comfortable leading in an open embrace, then walked her back to her seat. There were a few others that questioned the embrace, but upon hearing my explanation went along (and had a good time...).
In general, the ladies (including beginners) I dance with have no issue with close-embrace dancing. My wife and I dance at least once a week and she complains if a leader does not dance with her in a close embrace.

 

[itwillhappen]

Is that with a specific, limited, set of followers who also subscribe to that (which wasn't universal in BsAs)? Do you avoid/reject, say, beginners, who might prefer 'open'? Or more advanced dancers who prefer other styles of 'close'?

I accept that which you describe is a perfectly valid close style, but really wondering how followers react if it's not their preference.

Nobody has to invite someone, accept someone's invitation. What exactly is the background when you want someone to dance in a style they don't like? In practice, of course, there are always misunderstandings and borderline cases.

Yesterday I came to a milonga, did a cabeceo to a stranger who was probably not used to a close embrace, but wasn't prepared to enforce an open hold either. And so she tried to pull her shoulders back, but it pushed her chest out, tried to turn her head away, but couldn't dance in the posture.
That all changed quickly when I balanced her and she realized after a few steps that the stress was gone, dancing that way was much easier for her.

 

[itwillhappen]

Yeah, interesting. But I disagree with the analysis. The abrazo milonguero is not an abrazo apilado. The contact is direct, through the solar plexus, and close, but it's not apilado, which is a bit different. However, he clarifies what he means in a comment: "The “apilado” I usually use in my dancing is very subtle and it’s usually not visible from outside. I would describe it as this tendency to push from the torso of both partners. The position is not that important if you can achieve that exchange of energy." So, he's not talking about trying to be Gavito.

The misery on the dance floor is that couples were taught in an open hold and then at milongas try to imitate the close embrace they see. And for that they move closer together, maybe even snuggly close like in the youth at the high school parties, but their dancing results in awkward stepping on one's toes.

How exactly you then define the term apilado, who Gavito was, what he said, how he danced ... seems more or less irrelevant to me for these "intermediates", that picture from the blog post is more helpful:

 

[itwillhappen]

(sorry, on vacation right now, can't search)
It must have looked similar to what Maria Plazola once was doing with her left hand at 1:19.

Oh no, that would have meant slaps in the neck

The woman putting her hand on the man's collar is not that unusual, as we see in the video below at 08:30.
But I wouldn't caress every woman's bare neck because of it.
As it's also not "common sense" to lick her earlobe to the beat.

 

[opendoor]

..not yet "common sense" to lick her earlobe to the beat..

Good point: you should post this suggestion on the thread https://www.dance-forums.com/threads/new-developments-trends-over-the-last-decade.49958/