Embrace

[Peaches]

Oh, don't get me wrong! I agree that there is plenty of dissociation through the hips (one of the chief things I struggle with!). I agree that there is not physical, touching connection through the hips. And I certainly agree with the knees being relaxed.

I'm just saying that, IME, movement doesn't come from the hips/pelvis, but from the lower ribcage. THAT is where movement and power is generated, and it just ("just") gets carried through the hips. IME, it is best when the whole pelvic area is relaxed, and allowed to move with the body and with the step.

 

[Steve Pastor]

Can you name any muscle groups, cause I've recently been having some discomfort in my hips and have been looking into the anantomy there. I have since figured out that it's because I am trying to learn some movements to add to my line dancing that involve turnout.

While I understand that it is way more complicated than this, the legs are "hinged" at the knee and bottom of the hip. And that is what is referred to above.

Be glad to learn more about anatomy.

 

[tangobro]

More than once, I heard my favorite leaders describing their especially good dance experience, with followers who know how to embrace.

For me, there are two major obstacles. First obstacle is mental. I am afraid being misunderstood. I don't want my dance partner to think that I desire more than dance. Then, technically, I don't know how. How do we give a warm embrace without limit leader's ability of changing embrace? What is the right amount of pressure, so that the leader feel the "hug" but don't feel the burden, or rigidity?

Any thought? experience? Tips? Thanks a lot!

I was taught to allow the woman to set the distance within the embrace, and her to set position, either apilado, or the variations within salon style (which range from parallel to V shaped) so you can dance within your comfort zone.

For me the biggest thing that defines a woman with a good embrace is that she feels ... searching for a word - committed to the embrace. The Argentines say that to dance tango you should "entregarse", which doesn't translate exactly into English. It can mean to abandon yourself to something, to deliver yourself (?), to dedicate yourself, to surrender yourself. It's sometimes translated into English as surrender, but in English I think surrender has connotations of loss that I don't think apply to entregarse.

In terms of technique, Maria Blanco answered a similar question that one of the women asked by saying something I've heard other teachers say - that the woman should maintain her posture, and relax her raised ribcage into the man's chest, then relax her back backwards into the mans right arm, then dance centered within those points. For me the key points are that she feel relaxed & maintains her posture.

I'm acutely aware of a bad embrace - meaning her left arm is pulling down on my shoulders, or clamped tightly to my back, or she is trying to imitate someone she saw and is reaching over my shoulder to press her hand near my lower back and pinning my right shoulder (when it's done right though, without the pinning, this can be a nice variation).

If we are dancing in salon style her left hand should move across my back from one side to the other as we open up to do turns or figures. If her right elbow is bent & pointing toward the ground I feel less tension on that side & it feels better. If she is pulling my left arm down because she is not holding up her right hand, it makes for a tiring tanda. Same thing if it feels like she is pushing my left hand.

So don't do the bad stuff, if you commit yourself to the embrace (entregarse), everything else is good.

I say ditto to many of the other tips, and above all - ask your teachers in class. How you accomplish the techniques will vary with your size.

 

[Peaches]

Actually, no. I'm sorry. The best I can tell you is that, when I'm doing things well, it feels like I am relaxed enough to "pee all over the floor." (Again, apologies for the graphic description.) It is just a complete...looseness...through the entire pelvic region. The same way that your lower leg has to be free and loose, but you still have to be able to add power to a boleo...well, the pelvic region has to be free, but still able to add power. It feels like, if you imagine cradling a baby (and here I can _really_ only imagine, since I've never held a baby), but that baby is your ribcage...then you rock your ribcage gently with each step. Or, another way I feel it is to imagine/feel my hip bone moving in a circle with each step. It comes forward as my leg comes under me, and then up as I pick up my foot, and then back and down as I reach for the next step. But the movement isn't forced; it's not "hip action." It's more...contracting through my sides, rocking my ribcage, that carries through...all the way to my foot.

Er...prolly not helpful... Debatably correct. (It works for me...where I am in my learning now...doesn't mean it's what's correct or good. YMMV.)

 

[Subliminal]

Peach, I have heard it two ways, both to accomplish the same reaction. The follower either pretends that her legs extend all the way into her ribcage, or she "sits" into the step, allowing her butt to go back into the step. Both are means of getting the follower to engage her core and tilt her pelvis to the right degree, that's what it's really about imo. The "sitting" metaphor is what worked for me when I was working on following with my teacher. When I "sat" into the pre-step leg extension, I found I had a lot more control and could pivot easier.

 

[Subliminal]

To throw a little more theory into the works, I had an interesting discussion with my teacher about switching back and forth between the leader and follower roles.

The leader provides strength, confidence, and stability coming from their center. The leader must strive to keep their upper torso still and not interject too much noise. As for their lower body, it remains relaxed... the leader adapts to the position of the follower with his step. He leads from the center, then follows with his legs and feet to where the couple moves.

The follower is the polar opposite. The dance revolves around the position of her lower body. Her steps must be strong and confident such that the leader understands her position. Each movement of her lower body must be controlled, consistent, and stable. Conversely, the follower's torso must become dynamic and must adapt to the position of her leader.

Leader - Upper Body Stable/Strong, Lower Body Dynamic/Adaptive
Follower - Lower Body Stable/Strong, Upper Body Dynamic/Adaptive

I have issues as a follower keeping my upper body too static and stable. My strength is then opposing my leader, conflicting with their movement, giving tension to the dance. Something I have to work on. I wonder if followers who learn the leader role have the opposite problem; not providing enough strength/stability through their torso/center?

Anyway. It's not a perfect model, but it makes ya think, right?

 

[LoveTango]

Thank you, thank you. I am laying down to read all the good tips you offered. Will type my replies when I can use all 10 fingers.

 

[bastet]

To throw a little more theory into the works, I had an interesting discussion with my teacher about switching back and forth between the leader and follower roles.

The leader provides strength, confidence, and stability coming from their center. The leader must strive to keep their upper torso still and not interject too much noise. As for their lower body, it remains relaxed... the leader adapts to the position of the follower with his step. He leads from the center, then follows with his legs and feet to where the couple moves.

The follower is the polar opposite. The dance revolves around the position of her lower body. Her steps must be strong and confident such that the leader understands her position. Each movement of her lower body must be controlled, consistent, and stable. Conversely, the follower's torso must become dynamic and must adapt to the position of her leader.

Leader - Upper Body Stable/Strong, Lower Body Dynamic/Adaptive
Follower - Lower Body Stable/Strong, Upper Body Dynamic/Adaptive

I have issues as a follower keeping my upper body too static and stable. My strength is then opposing my leader, conflicting with their movement, giving tension to the dance. Something I have to work on. I wonder if followers who learn the leader role have the opposite problem; not providing enough strength/stability through their torso/center?

Anyway. It's not a perfect model, but it makes ya think, right?

I like this description. And I agree with it. I know I have had (Still have) this problem when I lead, and when I see ladies who are learning to lead. They look as if they are leading but still thinking like a follower, and some of that comes from the excess upper body dynamic.

To address the OP question about embrace. It seems to be a bit problematic for people in this country that if you are dancing close (and I guess I just am assuming that the sexual miscommunication thing is automatically applying to learning close embrace) is that some sort of instant sexual miscommunication is going to happen. I'd say, try to remove this way of thinking about the dance and try to think more about close embrace as sharing the music, your current feelings, your enjoyment of connection.

How to physically achieve this? Shape yourself to how your partner feels. (Guys can encourage this as well.) When I am dancing with someone, I will generally mirror what I feel from them. I also try to shape my embrace based on what I feel from them so it feels circular, and not linear, if possible. Then, we feel more as if a circuit is complete, and not disconnected. This takes time and lots of experimentation. (And all the people who mentioned don't trap your partners arm/shoulder and hold your own arms up is also a good physical start to a good embrace.) Once you go past that, I think you are trying to create a particular feeling that changes with every partner.

 

[opendoor]

..Google... equates embrace with abrazo... It also translates "hug" to abrazo...

Embrace and abrazo stem from latin brachium, which means arm. Hug is of danish origin and means fold or bending. So the first is an etymological translation, the latter more of a functional one.

..can I find a reference to "frame" or arms? (I collect these things, you know.)

A frame is a chain of arms and two bodies surrounding an axis which is shared at groin height. In apilado we share the same axis by direct contact, and in open hold two independent axis correspond by a mirroring principle. Only in colgadas we use something comparable, but in this case the frame is grounded at foot height. So for me the best equivalent for frame could be conexión.

...about the pelvis thing... (hmm plural?)

The plural of pelvis is pelves.
The plural of axis is axes?

 

[bordertangoman]

The leader couldn't care less about a warm embrace. The thing is just that he has to perceive that you're comfortable, confident, relaxed within his embrace. As long as he feels you unsafe, tense, fearful, unhappy to be there, encased, unsure, not dedicated, you prevent him from dancing.

and 1. no floppiness (b0dy) or 2.snuggling; (head to head) (Snuggling means in my terms, that you are not keeping your neck aligned with the rest of your spine; this compromises your posture) contact at cheek/temple is allowed if you dont break the second rule above.

 

[bordertangoman]

I love you post, Steve, although I would quibble with one point from the description you quoted. (And, yes, I realize this is moving off-topic.) I don't think of my legs as moving from my hip, but as moving from my ribcage. IMO, my walk improved by leaps and bounds when I learned to let my hips and pelvis relax and to move from the base of my ribcage. As it was put somewhere else here on D-F (albeit in a ballroom thread IIRC), t'was kind of like "peeing all over the floor." Sorry, I know that's graphic, but all of a sudden that phrase made perfect sense to me...and my walk felt transformed. More powerful, more feminine, more musical.

Do we call you Annie Sprinkle now?

but absloutley this:

"when I learned to let my hips and pelvis relax and to move from the base of my ribcage"

 

[jantango]

Shape yourself to how your partner feels. When I am dancing with someone, I will generally mirror what I feel from them. I also try to shape my embrace based on what I feel from them so it feels circular, and not linear, if possible. Then, we feel more as if a circuit is complete, and not disconnected. This takes time and lots of experimentation... Once you go past that, I think you are trying to create a particular feeling that changes with every partner.

I agree.

I can spot a foreign woman in a milonga by the lack of embrace. Many Argentine teachers don't teach how to embrace a partner. At least there is one place to learn...in the milongas dancing with the milongueros.

 

[UKDancer]

I've always had a nagging doubt about much of what I hear and read about the tango embrace.

I started a recent class just hugging my partner - you know, just a hug. It was close, intimate and our left arms were doing the same thing as our right arms. The closeness of the bodies was secondary to the encircling of the arms, which were around each other. We weren't holding each other, and yet there were hundreds of points of contact between us. I could feel her breathing and I could feel her heartbeat.

Then we changed our hug to an embrace, and started to dance. That was the teacher's idea.

 

[Peaches]

Yeah. And all of the chatter about technique is just nonsense; all you do is walk! *end sarcasm;

 

[JohnEm]

Then we changed our hug to an embrace, and started to dance. That was the teacher's idea.

And what was teacher's idea of the embrace?
Was it your own embrace or teacher's?
What was the resultant feel to your partner?

Many teachers do not even attempt to teach embrace, at least in classes.
Even in Buenos Aires teacher embrace appears to be different to that
at the social milongas amongst the regular and frequent dancers.
And thanks to jantango mine is now a very different and natural one,
much nearer to your description of the encircling arm(s).