Emotional maturity or what is that we are looking at - Gavito Festival 2024/Gustavo Naveira - Giselle Anne ?

[itwillhappen]

It feels like you question it every time you say something like, "people are judging this despite never having been in this performance situation".

No - I mean that everyone can clearly see that it was a "serious foul", so to speak, and that his disqualification is justified. And anyone who has experience with performances at or organization of larger events, or is an eyewitness or insider, can perhaps contribute something to the matter itself.

In addition, everyone may express their experiences, opinions and interests. But it is hard to avoid this touching private issues, because these are personal projections; the incident triggers something.

 

[Bailango]

As I said, a lot of people project their values onto this incident, even though or because they have never done a performance like this before.

People always project their values onto everything. From elections, to reactions to conflict, to public policies, to personal lives of other people, to AI, to almost anything you say about anything. How can you say anything about something without in someway projecting your value? Almost every post you or I ever posted is projecting some value. Therefore it is neither useful or too meaningful to say people are projecting values in this incident.

Neither does it has anything to do with lack of not having done a performance. I don’t have to be in anyone’s shoes to condemn or defend or praise a behavior that has taken place in public. You don’t have to have to be a President of a large country to condemn or defend, Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

It is called life and people being people. Not robots to confirm by some rules.

And so others are funnily speculating why the audience applauded and why the organizer didn't intervene earlier.

I don’t know what the speculation is since I am not on social media. Watching the videos the applause could have been for her or audience thought it was a part of the performance. I see people applaud in middle of a lot of performances. Most times it is a flashy or difficult move. Sometimes it is not, but half or quarter audience will applaud.

Intervene earlier like when? What does intervene mean? Interrupt the performance? It takes time to process what is happening. Was it or wasn’t it part of performance. Imagine the embarrassment, if they had intervened earlier and the couple had said everything is fine. We know from experience how forth it is to intervene between two people, especially a couple when things aren’t going well.

I can also understand that this is being used as a crystallization point for the demand for different behavior from men in tango, that tango shall be more women-friendly.

I am not sure if it is a crystallization point. It is not surprising and it is entirely along expected lines that it will be used by those on “behavior of men in tango” or “behavior of certain male performers” or “behavior of men of certain age from Argentina in Tango” to further their agenda. The phrase “further their agenda” generally has negative connotations, but I use it in neutral fashion. These kind of links and proof points are always latched on to when it confirms someone’s perception of a wider problem. Though circumstances may not back up or neatly fit.

To me this was a conflict or a result of one between two individuals, and reaction to it by one of them spilling out in the public. Nothing more. Though that reaction in my books was totally wrong (my value judgement).

Using or turning it into anything else is questionable. For example instead of him, it was her who was upset and displayed it in someone. The same people would have used it as a proof point of men bullying and dominating their female partners in Tango.

But I suppose that at least women over 40 will have to get along with the existing men ... or women, of course. Not to mention that we actually might need tango to be more men-friendly.

I have no idea how you arrived at advice out what it means. Why over 40. Who are existing men. Why not those not over 40. What is more men-friendly? Are you talking about life or tango?

 

[Bailango]

Did anyone question that?

The way you wrote, that is what it appears to be. Another lost in translation?

But if you focus so closely on this performance, then the demands of society have already been met.

Not sure again what is the implication of “focus so closely”. What “demands” have been met? That people paid and he got paid too?

 

[Bailango]

Because the impact area expands well beyond those primarily impacted.

Aside from the actual incident, and whatever preceded it, there's a whole load of social media personal issue projection onto this.

I honestly think it is a lot of noise. Projections happen all the time. Social media makes it a lot easier. People have short attention span. It will soon be forgotten like a tempest in a tea-pot. I don’t see any wider impact. Despite the noise. Nothing will change. We still will have more wider issues like cabaceo, ironing of seats, etc that will drive the conversations

It is worth discussing (the incident). Wider impact, I highly doubt.

In the US you may not have come across the 'bullying'** incident(s) which has recently tarnished Strictly. There's a whole spectrum of responses to that as well.

In US we have more important pressing matters of out and out bully with very real prospects of leading the country again . For all the hue and cry against bullying, nothing better illustrates why and how at least half the people are willing to look the other way.

In short those making noise get attention. It doesn’t imply things change. A change is gradual, almost a generational at the quickest. No one incident changes anything. It might start a movement at best. That’s very rare.

I remember till mid-2000s, gay-marriage was opposed by the majority (in the USA). It was in early to mid-2000s that the issue entered public consciousness. Nearly a decade later it was supported by the majority. That was one of the fastest shifts in public opinion and society on an issue, that I can think of.

As the saying goes: It has legs. It's difficult enough getting males into dance. I don't see that this incident will help.

This incident is very likely to be neutral in its impact on tango at large. That is no major impact. May be the language in the performance contracts will change, but who cares other than those parties to the contracts

 

[Bailango]

Not sure about that. I agree it overflowed onto the stage, but it should also end there. We're not marriage counselors and they didn't ask for our opinion. This reminds me too much of the way the tabloids talk about the private lives of movie stars and singers.

I don’t think anyone on this forum or post has talked about personal lives. To best I can see, all discussions here are only pertaining to public behavior displayed.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

the incident triggers something.

It doesn't trigger anything with me.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I don’t think anyone on this forum or post has talked about personal lives. To best I can see, all discussions here are only pertaining to public behavior displayed.

Once we begin delving into the behind-the-scenes motivations, their past history, *his* previous behavior, what *she* should have done,, what the organizers should have done. And then expand that into wider, societal issues, we're doing both. All of the discussions I've read outside this form (not many) largely concern his behavior, their life together, previous examples of such behavior, etc. That amounts to discussing their personal lives in public.

 

[Bailango]

Once we begin delving into the behind-the-scenes motivations, their past history, *his* previous behavior, what *she* should have done,, what the organizers should have done.

Don’t think that’s been done here on the forum. Not to any extent that it becomes a discussion point.

I do think what “she” did or should have done, or “organizers” did or should have done in reaction to what took place at that moment is relevant.

And then expand that into wider, societal issues, we're doing both.

Again not here on the forum. I don’t participate in any discussion anywhere else. Therefore unless someone posts a link here, it is hard to know.

I had half a dozen friends who attended Gavito, and the incident took place on Saturday night. I had no idea about anything till I opened this thread when it was already two pages long I think. Which was on either Monday or Tuesday. Reading the first few posts didn’t give any idea of what took place either. Just that something happened at Gavito related to Gustavo.

All of the discussions I've read outside this form (not many) largely concern his behavior, their life together, previous examples of such behavior, etc. That amounts to discussing their personal lives in public.

As I said I don’t follow tango discussions outside. I won’t know where to, if I wanted to. I ask people I know. None of the tango friends and people I know said anything in the tango group (three attended and tried to convince me for months to come). Nor when I went to milonga on Sunday night.

In a public space it is not surprising that some people who tend to be more vocal will dissect everything, some will link it to wider issues. That’s how public discourse takes place for any kind of public incident that gets witnessed and disseminated. Opinion pieces in the news media do it for living. Once any incident takes place, its antecedents and precedents, wider impact, etc get gossiped, talked about, dissected, given different context, etc. Fair and unfair links, attributions and conclusions are drawn and made.

Being public means personal life can get dragged out. Hazards of being a public figure. Late princess Diana and British royalty are prime example of that that behavior where media endlessly discusses their personal lives and a lot of people must consume it.

 

[David_In_CA]

Because the impact area expands well beyond those primarily impacted.

Aside from the actual incident, and whatever preceded it, there's a whole load of social media personal issue projection onto this.

In the US you may not have come across the 'bullying'** incident(s) which has recently tarnished Strictly. There's a whole spectrum of responses to that as well.

I don't wish to add to this by going into detail, nor the social media responses.

@pianistamediano has already referred to the type of response

so I won't go into details. You can look them up. Traumatic personal life problems get projected onto 'dance' in general, and the male sex in particular. Obviously this incident is AT in particular and associated perceptions of toxic attitudes, which have been aired previously.

The Strictly incident, coupled with others in high-level sports training, impacts any training (and, in other events, there's certainly a documented incident of an advertised paediatrician's consulting rooms being attacked because the low-intellects don't know the difference between that and a paedophile - and consider such actions appropriate). I appreciate the courage of any young male now considering working with young children. You will doubtless be aware of the toxic nature of some of these unfounded conspiracy theories promoted by those who should know better

As the saying goes: It has legs. It's difficult enough getting males into dance. I don't see that this incident will help.

** I can say 'bullying' because the BBC has accepted the verbal 'bullying' claims, but not others.


PS - let's not divert into these. I only give them as examples of the expanded impact area beyond publicly trashing lifetime careers of individuals within the narrow focus of this performance.

Maybe I should have bolded the piece I was questioning. I project my values onto the incident: "It's bad / borderline abusive to publicly and lengthily chastise a coworker during work". I do that irrespective of whether I have experience in whatever work they are engaging in.

people project their values onto this incident, even though or because they have never done a performance like this before.

 

[Miradamiranda]

personal projections; the incident triggers something.

doesn't trigger anything with me

Both professional and private triggers are what I see. Being humiliated in public by your partner. A life partner OR a professional partner. Here it’s a double whammy that the work partner IS a life partner. PLUS the special situation of the dance being a role play of romance. Those who are triggered might be reminded of either being the victim of such behavior or those being reminded of some embarrassing behavior they themselves have committed. But also, if not involved themselves, being bystanders of such embarrassing behavior where you care about the person who is either behaving badly or being treated like that.
Among tango professionals I see an additional trigger of how the female partner in a tango partnership is often a disposable role. Most pro tango partners, if they have problems that make working together too difficult, simply keep their issues private, they split up, and HE continues the stardom with a new woman. Here what is unique is that the world can see HE is the one behaving badly, regardless of what triggered the anger.

 

[Brummbaer]

I project my values onto the incident: "It's bad / borderline abusive to publicly and lengthily chastise a coworker during work".

Yes. I agree with your values there. But the problem is that the rest of the social media world doesn't, and a whole wide spectrum of other incidents and values is overloaded onto it seeking some cause. At least for the moment. Maybe it is a localised 'storm in a teacup'; maybe it rumbles on, as other incidents have. Overall it has no effect on me or our dancing.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

Again not here on the forum. I don’t participate in any discussion anywhere else. Therefore unless someone posts a link here, it is hard to know.

Not here on the forum, although this very conversation attests to the fact that it is "newsworthy." However, I believe there have been lengthy and somewhat acrimonious discussions on Fbook.

 

[itwillhappen]

Those who are triggered might be reminded of either being the victim of such behavior or those being reminded of some embarrassing behavior they themselves have committed. But also, if not involved themselves, being bystanders of such embarrassing behavior where you care about the person who is either behaving badly or being treated like that.

Once I have reflected that the incident in LA does not affect me in any way, as I would not spend money on unfriendly teachers or couples with tensions, nor would I pay specifically for performances, I can still look at the situation around me. (Although the kind of real macho behavior that is used to advertise tango seems to be rare in Northern Europe anyway. One might have to book a vacation to Buenos Aires or at least Istanbul.)

Personally, I'm only interested in incidents in which the partner makes it unmistakably clear that she (one magnitude less often he) doesn't want to dance with the person again, and the person may even react in an intrusive manner. In the interests of protecting privacy, however, I shouldn't actually find out anything unless I witness it directly. But I still have the impression that such cases are rare. Nevertheless, it is possible that almost every woman could have experienced something like that over time and many partners.

It's also quite difficult for the organizers, who may be required to be alerted and responsive depending on the law. Perpetrators don't have to be stupid or incapable of dancing, and they will do such selectively. So if you want to take action, you will also scare off a number of harmless men.

And I personally wouldn't name the wide range of opportunistic decisions beyond the above "abuse".

P.S.: All of this applies to leisure activities. Professional and private spheres are treated differently for good reasons.

 

[Bailango]

Law in general doesn’t legislate morality or ethics.

The society in general practices morality and ethics. There is a certain code that we buy into. It is called social contract. When a member of society breaks a social contract, there are consequences.

The morality and ethics are relative to time and place. They change. Sometimes breaking norms and mores of the day is being progressive. Conversely trying to stick to the norms and mores of bygone era is regressive.

Everything is on a spectrum. The level of public outcry depends on where the action falls on the spectrum of societal norms and values, as perceived by the majority at the time.

 

[itwillhappen]

The society in general practices morality and ethics. There is a certain code that we buy into. It is called social contract. When a member of society breaks a social contract, there are consequences.

This works particularly well if you align your own behavior with it and don't expect a certain behavior from others. Recently, a couple was dancing in front of me at a milong who were constantly discussing their dancing, even between songs. Yes, well, the fact that you don't teach at a milonga is my personal opinion. Admittedly, I don't want to be accused of "mansplaining" the two women either.