Growing Old in Tango

[LadyLeader]

I think a third reason is that they're vigorous, to be honest

I think you are right here!

I know two milongueras who always talk about caminata and point out the walking milongueros. They have done it for years and I felt that milonguero would be the last word in their life. but no!. I have seen them surprisingly dancing with young leaders with double size steps and unstable enrosques. Both came back saying - He is my true favorite!

Personally two followers have said that I lead even long steps and their voice was telling that it had been their secret dream for a long time.

The same, same dancing gets maybe boring and you want some new, whatever inputs to wakeup your dance desire.

 

[Brummbaer]

i think it's a question of style, there just isn't much demand for "milonguero" style classes for example

That's really a matter of adapting to the market whilst retaining the good aspects of 'tradition'. The issue seems to be that some 'younger' (less experienced) dancers don't know how to dance within the circumstances of the ronda.

I have seen them surprisingly dancing with young leaders with double size steps and unstable enrosques. Both came back saying - He is my true favorite!

Adapt to use the space, if available. Also, it takes some experience (practice) to develop some of those moves and perfect them. 'Good enough' may simply be the necessary criteria.

Interesting point on 'double size steps, which we were discussing with one (younger and taller) teacher leading one step instead of a customary two. We're taller than our parents; younger people tend to be taller. And with that longer legs. Of course, every dance partnership varies. So, from the lead perspective, it's about leading a 'double size' step appropriate to that follower.

 

[JournalInTime]

From at least two different incidents I'm aware of, you can turn that around. As an experienced, advanced, follower, and teacher/performer, maybe it's just not worth the risk with a younger, wild, leader. It's not 'fragility'; it's about injury and your livelihood. Safer to dance with other 'advanced', or other professionals.

Certainly.

My coach is a woman in her early 60s. Being a dancer all her life, and a Pilates and yoga instructor, she is in noticeably better shape than most of the other women I dance with, even the ones in their 30s. She hasn't lost athleticism, but she has become easier to hurt – bones and joints get only so many years. Consequently, she has replaced tango teaching with tango coaching, and regards this vocation as a "finishing school": She accepts only dancers who are at the stage where they no longer need lessons, but want them even after 10 years or more.

This also shows on the milonga floor. She dances a lot, but when you look at who she dances with, it's for the most part other instructors, plus the same group of dancers who are at the stage where they no longer need lessons, but want and continue to take them. Dancing with someone wild could cost her work – less in tango than in Pilates, where she works with private clients who pay very well (like a former PM's wife).

 

[JournalInTime]

From a leader perspective: because it's enjoyable to dance with people with lots of physicality and little tango experience, channel their movement, and see what we can create. The dance usually feels good, some of the responses to leads will be unexpected and the improvisation is part of the fun.

I've had that experience, and agree up to a point. Where it gets tricky for me is when said dancers get too free and wild. I am not a poor leader, but there's only so much I can do to "channel" an unled boleo away from joints and softer bits.

It's just a question of how much value you assign to each attribute of a "good" dancer and we just have to accept that other people have different preferences. I'm also not sure why some people dance with others that I consider to be poor dancers (when we dont have the dance stealing issue from the other thread), but they just have some unidentified factor that they like or aren't bothered by the flaws that bother me.

This is true as well. I completely accept that preferences are personal. My only beef, really, is that even among those who make it clear that they want to dance with me, the cabeceo is a lost art. I've had too many conversations like this on my way out the door:

Tanguera: Dommage que nous n'ayons pas dansé ce soir. Je l'aurais aimé.
Me: Eh bien, j'ai essayé plusieurs cabeceos ce soir.
Tanguera: De quoi parles-tu?
Me: . . .

But as you wrote, that's another thread. I will say that it's consistently younger tangueras who have this exchange with me, though.

 

[JournalInTime]

i think it's a question of style, there just isn't much demand for "milonguero" style classes for example

Which is too bad, because that style is perfect for the crowded milongas we get around here, and easier on the body with age. Older, creakier guys trying to dance like Gianpiero Galdi or even Emmanuel Casal – and both looking stupid and inconveniencing others while doing so – is a feature at all of our milongas.

 

[JournalInTime]

Personally two followers have said that I lead even long steps and their voice was telling that it had been their secret dream for a long time.

Long steps are great fun! However, they're more athletic than people give credit for. The degree of push and extension/projection required, the precision needed, and the balance/stability needed aren't accessible to all. They aren't something I associate with older dancers at all, but with 30-somethings whose mental picture of self is "Tango de Pista competitor at the Mundial."

Which said, I try despite being closer to 60 than to 30. It seems to work right now. Around here, the biggest obstacle isn't age but crowds . . . one long step eats all the space you'll get for most of an entire tango.

 

[Miradamiranda]

Re; Old men.
I have a couple of darling old gentleman among my regular partners in two different cities. I’m guessing early 80’s or late 70’s but both with major health issues. They can barely walk into the milonga. One uses a cane, the other looks like he has major neurological issues. They are both very economical with who they dance with. So when I get cabeceo’ed from either, I prioritize them and will absolutely not decline. It’s an honor that they choose me as their only one or three tandas that are not with their wives. Once we are on the dance floor, their experience and subtlety far outweighs their agility. Then we forget all about limitations. I just consciously make myself very light for them to move around, I am careful to not pull them off balance, and should it be needed, I’m strong enough to hold them. They both gave me chances way back when they were in their (late) prime, and I won’t forget that. But even if I hadn’t had the history with them, these dances are very enjoyable to me.

re; old women. The other day, dancing in another city and not knowing anyone, I got cabeceo'ed by one of the most beautiful elegant old ladies I’ve ever seen off the movie screens. She led beautifully and delicately but a bit on the limited side. I later saw her dance as a follower and I realized she was quite good. Older ladies often pick up leading because they are overlooked. Looks and fragility/ mobility were not working against her. But age was.

re; my own age.
I personally have a certain level of urgency in making the most of my dancing life right now. I feel I have a window of opportunity of about a decade. Between when I became good enough a dancer to be dancing a lot, and before I’m old and overlooked by everyone other than people who already know me. This coincides luckily with becoming an empty-nester and having the time and economy (and work opportunities) to travel and explore tango scenes in different cities without knowing anyone. I’ve done just that this past week and had a blast with excellent dancers of a wide age spread, a wide stylistic spread too, and several expressing that I should come back to visit soon again. How can that not boost my ego… and that in one of the world’s best tango scenes. It took me a while to get the first dances at each place, even with my skills of choosing good cabeceo angles and being good at the art of cabeceo. (Btw, funny how customs are different in some places. One of the cities I visited this week, the guys were asking already in the cortina, and some were surprised that I used the cabeceo. One guy I thought I had clinched the deal with eye contact and a smile from just 2 meters away. Then he walked to the side. I thought he had declined. I looked in his new direction by chance. He looked at me. Nothing. Then a couple of minutes later he walked over to me and asked politely verbally.)
Anyhow all this will be much harder for me in a few years. Someone above mentioned the issue of not staying up late for the interesting music, the space, the ability to be seen. I’m there till the very end normally. I fear that won’t always be the case.

oh, one more anecdote about not declining a dance with an old guy. This was in my previous life before tango. I went with a car-load of salsa dancing friends to a huge salsa congress in a city several hours away. One was a sweet guy but not a good dancer. Knowing the importance of getting that first dance so you get seen, I was feeling annoyed that the not very good dancer stood next to me and said he has soon mustered up the strength to dance and wether I’d give him the honors. “Oh no, not him” was only in my head, but I obliged. Obliged is the exact right word here. It was not a good dance, and right enough, I didn’t get any dances for quite a while after that. The guy was a Vietnam war veteran with PTSD and used salsa dancing as therapy to overcome crowds and loud noise. So that’s what I thought he was referrring to with respect to him being almost ready to tackle a dance. If I had declined that dance, I’d have felt guilty till this day. I was his last dance. Ever. A week or so later he died.

I had that memory in mind when one of the old guys mentioned earlier was entering a small milonga, but decided he was too vain to walk in with his walker so he opted for the cane instead. He just wanted to sit and watch, listen, and see old friends he hadn’t seen since before Covid. When he was leaving, I caught him at the door to say goodbye. I held him in close embrace just shifting weight to the music, no steps, for not more than one song. He held on to me for stability. His voice was cracking up when he thanked me and said he is now determined to be able to dance a full tanda in 3 months. He did. He worked very hard, very determined with a physical therapist to get back to his love, dancing. And now he is.

 

[Rabbit]

[

My only beef, really, is that even among those who make it clear that they want to dance with me, the cabeceo is a lost art. I've had too many conversations like this on my way out the door:

Well, if they clearly prefer that you'd just ask them, why not just ask them?

 

[JournalInTime]

Following up on myself:

I work with "movement fragments" [...] I piece these together on the spot to express the music.

I wouldn't want to dance with people [who say] "That's weird, I've never seen it, and I refuse to do it."

I put it to the test at the milonga last night, intentionally avoiding classic steps and sequences, and picking partners who were smiling, chatty, and not sticking to a clique. One tanguera giggled through our tanda, smiled at the end, and thanked me for being "fun"; one gave me a little hug after each vals in a tanda; and two thanked me for not being "one of the boring guys." This morning, two others wrote me, one to say that I'm "creative" and "an artist," another to say that I just saved her from quitting tango, where she was getting bored. That tells me that at least one way to stay interesting as I age is to avoid falling into patterns.

 

[JournalInTime]

Well, if they clearly prefer that you'd just ask them, why not just ask them?

For the same reason I don't cut in line at the café, I suppose. It might be foolish of me, but I think asking with the cabeceo is the most respectful option. That's my choice, for good or for ill.

 

[pianistamediano]

Some of the words here make me feel so young at 55 . . . even though I'm older than almost everyone at three of the milongas I attend. Of course, I'm younger than just about everyone at three others, and about average for all the rest.

Makes me wonder how I should be feeling, being only in my (late) 20s.

In my experience, people around my age (20s and 30s) lean towards more of elegance (which equates to efficiency, in my opinion) in movement and musicality and connection. I see more people in the next few age ranges (40s and so on) that do plenty of ganchos, wraps, boleos, stage movements, etc.. And it is the latter who take up a lot of space on the pista and have poor floorcraft. But this is only my impression, because the few dancers I notice here with poor floorcraft or who enjoy showing off are all in their 40s or 50s. Maybe they're trying to feel young?

And I am probably at the very least slightly biased in this, because in the university society I started dancing, the teachers mostly emphasise these concepts instead of flashy figures and sequences. So it could be just the local community, and not applicable to the rest of the tango world. I am going to a more casual milonga with an underground feel tonight, whose audience is a younger demographic than usual, so I will report my observations and findings.

As for myself, I do agree that for instructors, it is more about PR than age. I'd have no qualms studying with Tete Rusconi or Osvaldo Cartery if they were still alive today. If real life allows, and I am still dancing in the years to come, I'd be taking technique lessons with someone like Veronica Toumanova or JournalInTime to refine my technique. I want to know and understand why women all over the world love Argentinian men's embraces, so I want to take some classes in Buenos Aires to study that.

As for physical wellbeing, I intend on being physically active, as well as taking especial care of my feet (bunions) and knees.

I am lucky enough to be able to get dances with advanced followers, even though I dance by choice a limited set of steps. I know the theory behind volcadas and sacadas and boleos and ganchos, I guess, but these I do once in a blue moon, in order of frequency. I assume that they are willing to dance with me despite my technique (I still momentarily lose my balance sometimes, I can be unclear in my lead, I need to be more grounded, etc.) because of:

1. Physical appearance - I dress well, have a good physique (only 10% milonguero belly!!!) and smell good due to discreet application of a high quality EDT/EDP.
2. Taking care of them - I embrace them without any hesitation, and try to provide a constant sense of security and comfort. I look out for danger on the pista. I compensate if they should slip or stumble, and if they make a movement that takes them away from me and makes them unstable, I go with them and steady both of us.
3. Musicality - The majority of followers I dance with for the first time always comment on this. A lot of advanced followers are more than willing to relax and surrender to my interpretation, because they can feel its overpowering sensation when I put my all into becoming the music.

Interestingly, I have had less success with younger followers (20s, 30s), advanced or otherwise, which I attribute to mistrusting my skill/experience due to my young age, lack of observation skills, or that they simply don't like what they see when I'm on the pista. Or they suspect I have ulterior motives for dancing. It happens. My dancing isn't particularly athletic, even if I'm dancing Biagi.

 

[Rabbit]

For the same reason I don't cut in line at the café, I suppose. It might be foolish of me, but I think asking with the cabeceo is the most respectful option. That's my choice, for good or for ill.

Sure, and I prefer it as well, but if the social norm at a particular milonga is not to cabeceo, perhaps it's actually more respectful to ask directly and politely?

 

[Rabbit]

Interestingly, I have had less success with younger followers (20s, 30s), advanced or otherwise, which I attribute to mistrusting my skill/experience due to my young age, lack of observation skills, or that they simply don't like what they see when I'm on the pista. Or they suspect I have ulterior motives for dancing. It happens. My dancing isn't particularly athletic, even if I'm dancing Biagi.

Or they think you're a beginner because you don't do the flashy and athletic moves expected of a young dancer. (I think your teachers might be a bit of an exception.)

 

[Bailango]

Well, if they clearly prefer that you'd just ask them, why not just ask them?

For the same reason I don't cut in line at the café, I suppose. It might be foolish of me, but I think asking with the cabeceo is the most respectful option. That's my choice, for good or for ill.

I am in the same boat as @JournalInTime on this. With the caveats as explained elsewhere.

 

[JournalInTime]

Makes me wonder how I should be feeling, being only in my (late) 20s.

Young? I'll take those 30 years of youth if you're not using 'em!

I see more people in the next few age ranges (40s and so on) that do plenty of ganchos, wraps, boleos, stage movements, etc. [...] Maybe they're trying to feel young?

I can answer this one, at least: People in their 40s and 50s today were in their 20s when? That was 20-30 years ago, in the early 1990s through early 2000s. What was a big deal at the time? The "tango nuevo" of Frumboli, Verón, Naveira, Salas, Arce, et al. As my coach who started tango in the early 1990s likes to say, "At the time, all we had was stage tango and 'nuevo,' because that's what made it out of Argentine and reached us here."

So . . . people who've been dancing since then and people taught by them still have a lot of that in their dance DNA. I started in 2013, 10 years after that was cool, and the syllabus included boleos, empujadas, enganches, ganchos, piernazos, and all the other stuff with high legs, not to mention movements ripped straight out of ballet (the background of two of the teachers), like battements, and even gymnastics (the school founder was a gymnast).

But overall, in the period when I started, there was a sort of "return to origins" movement that placed a higher value on a good walk and smaller, crowd-friendly movements.

I'd be taking technique lessons with someone like Veronica Toumanova or JournalInTime to refine my technique.

I'm flattered, but I've met Veronica and seen her dance. I'm not in that league. Pay her, not me.

I compensate if they should slip or stumble

I catch falls, of course – just the other day, my partner stepped on an ornament on her other shoe and would've gone down had I not caught her. However, I was taught never, ever to compensate; so, I try not to. Compensating tends to lead to an excess of control. Also, it's hard on your body.

Interestingly, I have had less success with younger followers (20s, 30s), advanced or otherwise, which I attribute to mistrusting my skill/experience due to my young age, lack of observation skills, or that they simply don't like what they see when I'm on the pista.

Well, there's currently a rebound from the "return to origins" movement going on. I cannot say where it comes from . . . everybody younger than a certain age wants to dance like Yanina Muzyka and Emmanuel Casal. Heck, even dancers I know in their 60s are passing around and admiring this video, for instance.

My dancing isn't particularly athletic, even if I'm dancing Biagi.

It's mostly D'Arienzo (speed) and Pugliese (dynamicism) that bring it out in me. Otherwise I try to be polite.