Growing Old in Tango

[JournalInTime]

Sure, and I prefer it as well, but if the social norm at a particular milonga is not to cabeceo, perhaps it's actually more respectful to ask directly and politely?

More respectful, I don't know . . . more productive, sure.

 

[Bailango]

Sure, and I prefer it as well, but if the social norm at a particular milonga is not to cabeceo, perhaps it's actually more respectful to ask directly and politely?

I don’t understand the assumption behind this argument I hear often on here. One or two dancers saying so, or 10% or 20% of the participants doing it at milonga, or some dancers not comfortable with or not knowing how to indulge in art of cabaceo —> doesn’t make it a social norm at the particular milonga.

If everyone was asking everyone, or most people were verbally asking like in salsa socials, then it wouldn’t be an issue. Not able to cabaceo or ignoring it not too different from bad dancing skills. It is bad milonga skills at a milonga where most people are trying “some form” of cabaceo. I say “some form”because it may not be perfect, like people walking 10 feet and then initiating mirada from 3 or 4 feet in your face kind of way. Atleast they are trying. If someone has poor eyesight due to whatever reason and lets that be known then you make a mental note of that and adjust the asking accordingly.

I can’t remember attending a milonga where there was more verbal asking than establishing eye contact. I am sure they exist somewhere on the earth as some here write. I haven’t encountered them.

While Argentinians have given it a fancy name, establishing an eye contact as an expression of interest (or opposite in case of glare), is almost universal in the world. It is used in other dances unconsciously and verbal asking becomes a formality since you already have sealed the deal. You see someone, eyes lock, you smile or nod with head in the direction of floor as you walk or some quick gestures to confirm from either side and then either extend the hand or say “will you like to dance”. The last part is often redundant and politeness that you haven’t taken their consent for granted. Yes if someone’s back is towards you and you want their attention you might tap lightly on their back or shoulders on a crowded floor. That’s the only part which is okay in other dances but would be too aggressive or disrespectful at milonga.

P.S - @David_In_CA can edit time be increased from 15 minutes. I typed this as part of previous post, but was already out of 15 minutes edit time by time I clicked on save.

 

[Bailango]

Makes me wonder how I should be feeling, being only in my (late) 20s.

Tango baby enjoy it

In my experience, people around my age (20s and 30s) lean towards more of elegance (which equates to efficiency, in my opinion) in movement and musicality and connection. I see more people in the next few age ranges (40s and so on) that do plenty of ganchos, wraps, boleos, stage movements, etc.. And it is the latter who take up a lot of space on the pista and have poor floorcraft. But this is only my impression, because the few dancers I notice here with poor floorcraft or who enjoy showing off are all in their 40s or 50s. Maybe they're trying to feel young?

I think this is due to combination of two things. How someone has been taught, that is the local culture and how quickly they grasp what partner dancing really is. More is less mantra is advised to beginners in other dances too. Like tango, other dances have people emulating performance style dancing on social floor. What I am saying this divide between economy in social dancing, attention to connection, musicality versus excessive unnecessary poorly executed complicated moves, exists in all dance forms. Instructors teach complicated stuff. If they teach simple stuff they lose out to instructors who teach complicated stuff. The beginners are often under impression being good means trying to do complicated stuff. And ignoring the fundamentals as boring stuff. This habit gets reinforced the more they take classes during beginner’s hell. That cycle now becomes vicious and hard to break. Very few people understand instructors that teach what they need. Therefore instructors have to include what people want into the mix. Only small percentage of dancers see the light whether right at the beginning or somewhere along the journey. They are generally the one who later become good, sought after, and top dancers.

I want to know and understand why women all over the world love Argentinian men's embraces, so I want to take some classes in Buenos Aires to study that.

I have a mix feeling. I think a good hold can be taught. I don’t think embrace than makes someone feel good can be taught. It has to come from within you. It is also a part of dancing technique that’s hardest to impart to someone. How do you teach someone an embrace that will make other person feel good? I have some ideas but I am not sure. Nor am I an instructor.

1. Physical appearance - I dress well, have a good physique (only 10% milonguero belly!!!) and smell good due to discreet application of a high quality EDT/EDP.

Attempting to look good always goes some way in people wanting to say yes. One thing I have consistently observe about the pros is that they will always be well dressed.

2. Taking care of them - I embrace them without any hesitation, and try to provide a constant sense of security and comfort. I look out for danger on the pista. I compensate if they should slip or stumble, and if they make a movement that takes them away from me and makes them unstable, I go with them and steady both of us.

Many followers underestimate or unaware of how good leaders are subtle about keeping them out of danger and compensate. That can include blending the choice of movement that not only goes with the music but also keeps them safe from danger zone. Followers who are aware are invariably the good ones at dancing skills. When I observe good dancers/followers have in common, it is more than good movement, technique, fundamentals, and musicality. They also are more aware and practice unspoken things that make overall dancing experience positive. Both on and off the floor.

 

[Bailango]

I can answer this one, at least: People in their 40s and 50s today were in their 20s when? That was 20-30 years ago, in the early 1990s through early 2000s. What was a big deal at the time? The "tango nuevo" of Frumboli, Verón, Naveira, Salas, Arce, et al. As my coach who started tango in the early 1990s likes to say, "At the time, all we had was stage tango and 'nuevo,' because that's what made it out of Argentine and reached us here."

I said this yesterday about local dancers who started before me. Only few remain as other have moved out or moved on. Of those remaining this is the similar explanation that was offered to me by the followers who danced with them. Not because they like their dancing but because they are friends. My exact comment to these followers were “After 25-30 years of dancing he is still trying to dance like young neuvo dancer in the middle of Ronda. It looks awkward because he is physically trying to move the follower without proper technique”. A couple of followers replied “that is how they were taught at that time. It was mostly show dancers of late eighties or nineties that were teaching”. I was lucky to be on the cusp where that transition was taking place. My first instructor to introduce me to tango also taught more performance style movements and Apilado embrace with emphasis on chest lead. Simultaneously on different day of the week they had guest instructor come in to do a series. He was the opposite but taught Apilado style. He was a good teacher. Taught many fundamentals right. When I see him social dancing, it is like watching someone sleepwalking. If he wasn’t an instructor you would think he is an average social dancer who is boring to watch or dance with. I was lucky that I sampled over a dozen instructors. I knew very quickly what I liked and needed.

But overall, in the period when I started, there was a sort of "return to origins" movement that placed a higher value on a good walk and smaller, crowd-friendly movements.

This began around 2008 in earnest where I am. I don’t know if this shift was global. By time I started dancing internationally when traveling for work, nuevo was a small niche everywhere. Most milongas and workshops were compact movement, good walk, musicality, etc.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

I'm also not sure why some people dance with others that I consider to be poor dancers (when we dont have the dance stealing issue from the other thread), but they just have some unidentified factor that they like or aren't bothered by the flaws that bother me.

Unfortunately, we're not privy to that information. We cannot intuit the way someone else feels about dancing with someone (whether we approve of their dancing or not). Morever, many (most?) women want to dance. Period. They are not as selective or demanding as some leaders (or other women for that matter). I can't figure it out. I've danced with women who I believe to be good dancers who then dance with guys who I think are just awful. Obviously, they experience something I'm incapable of seeing. Maybe it's purely physical? Who knows? Tis a mystery. But, ultimately, it's their choice and we shouldn't judge.

 

[ArbeeNYC]

i think it's a question of style, there just isn't much demand for "milonguero" style classes for example

If that's how the instructors instruct, that's how the students will learn. Beginners are completely unaware of stylistic differences or traditions. Of course, if you study with someone who only does escenario or tango nuevo, well, that's likely to be what you'll be taught, or, at least, a different approach to the dance.

 

[Brummbaer]

I don’t understand the assumption behind this argument I hear often on here.

Circumstances and 'local culture' matter. As you said:

If everyone was asking everyone, or most people were verbally asking like in salsa socials, then it wouldn’t be an issue.

Two scenarios:

• We sometimes go to a milonga in a rural setting. It's surrounded by farms, grazing sheep, hills, and tourists at times. The milonga attendees are generally 'locals' (say up to 30-50 miles travel). It's traditional AT music. We go because we have connections in the area, and it sometimes occurs when we're staying over. We now know some of the people, and sometimes even meet them at other milongas. There's perhaps 20-30 who attend. There's even tables and food. Occasional cabeceo; generally a verbal invite or walkeceo. People wander up, talk, and invite. It's more of a social time.
• Another scenario: there's a modern jive session in the adjacent room. The 'milonga' is a mix of traditional and alternative, but only 2 dances per tanda. The cortina is just a slightly longer space between. A few tables for drinks. The floor doesn't clear. It's all verbal invites. It's about dances.

Artificially creating some construct of a BsAs milonga venue and enforcing separate followers and leaders seating, as has been attempted, and then enforcing strict cabeceo/mirada isn't a great social night out, but maybe that's the norm somewhere. Or maybe it's more relaxed. Maybe age teaches that it doesn't matter. We're not in BsAs, but if we were, I'd attempt to conform to the local customs and culture. If the venue is conducive to cabeceo/mirada, and some people are using it, then I'll go with it; if not, then observe and fit in.

Those probably aren't the milonga you attend, or maybe don't classify them as 'milongas', but just 'dances'. You take what you can get, but a more 'traditional', social milonga with some, less strict, cabeceo/mirada is nicer.

 

[Rabbit]

If that's how the instructors instruct, that's how the students will learn. Beginners are completely unaware of stylistic differences or traditions.

Maybe in a small scene with one instructor, but even then the students can go online where they'll encounter some material that contradicts whatever their instructor was saying. And the original context was for visiting instructors where there's generally a lot of choice (and financial pressure to propose a workshop topic that will be popular.)

 

[Rabbit]

So . . . people who've been dancing since then and people taught by them still have a lot of that in their dance DNA. I started in 2013, 10 years after that was cool, and the syllabus included boleos, empujadas, enganches, ganchos, piernazos, and all the other stuff with high legs, not to mention movements ripped straight out of ballet (the background of two of the teachers), like battements, and even gymnastics (the school founder was a gymnast).

But overall, in the period when I started, there was a sort of "return to origins" movement that placed a higher value on a good walk and smaller, crowd-friendly movements.

The pendulum swung back away from conservatism in terms of what's being taught nowadays (at least in Europe), now it's build a good technical base and then add all the athletic moves. It's also common to hear some alternative music used in workshops or performances, modern orchestras incorporated into DJ sets.

In general, to attract and retain good dancers in tango, I think it does need this variety and challenge, and it of course coincides with the financial interest of the owners of dance schools, who need to provide more content to keep students over a longer period of time. But personally speaking if early 2010s style conservative tango was the only option available, I'd have quit long ago.

I do think people could use more training in how to deal with crowded floors but what's viewed as "milonguero" style is considered too restrictive.

If one day I can't dance as I would like anymore, then I will probably shift mostly to the music side.

 

[pianistamediano]

Or they think you're a beginner because you don't do the flashy and athletic moves expected of a young dancer. (I think your teachers might be a bit of an exception.)

Good point. I lucked out with my teachers, I guess, and they've always impressed on me the importance of solid fundamentals before trying out the flashy and more [?] fun (for some definition of fun) movements.

 

[pianistamediano]

Young? I'll take those 30 years of youth if you're not using 'em!

Vampire! Begone!

I'm flattered, but I've met Veronica and seen her dance. I'm not in that league. Pay her, not me.

Let's just say that I think there are things you could help me improve on, and there's a minimum (and maximum) amount of money I'm willing to pay for that.

I catch falls, of course – just the other day, my partner stepped on an ornament on her other shoe and would've gone down had I not caught her. However, I was taught never, ever to compensate; so, I try not to. Compensating tends to lead to an excess of control. Also, it's hard on your body.

I think it's a habit developed from dancing often with beginners at milongas - I try to make them feel great, which includes making them feel like a good dancer. It's more of minimising their perception of any 'mistakes' with little adjustments. But for the most part, I do mean things like catching their falls. Obviously, if I had to strain myself to compensate, then I'd rather not dance with them.

Well, there's currently a rebound from the "return to origins" movement going on. I cannot say where it comes from . . . everybody younger than a certain age wants to dance like Yanina Muzyka and Emmanuel Casal. Heck, even dancers I know in their 60s are passing around and admiring this video, for instance.

Oh dear. It's fun to dance like this for a song, but if I'm expected to dance like this for longer...

It's mostly D'Arienzo (speed) and Pugliese (dynamicism) that bring it out in me. Otherwise I try to be polite.

D'Arienzo with Echagüe and/or Biagi on the piano is probably peak D'Arienzo for me. I want even higher levels of precision (than I usually do) from myself and my follower in order to do justice to songs like El Flete or Mandria or Viejo Portón. Coupled with the speed, I suppose it requires an unavoidable level of athleticism, so I avoid dancing these tandas with older followers (unless I know that they can do it).

 

[pianistamediano]

Tango baby enjoy it

incomprehensible babu noises

I don’t think embrace than makes someone feel good can be taught. It has to come from within you. It is also a part of dancing technique that’s hardest to impart to someone.

I've been experimenting with different configurations. Tonight, I was surprised when I realised my left hand looked a lot like Gavito's. I'd honestly be satisfied if I could feel the Argentine embrace for myself, and if a teacher can explain the rationale/technical aspects, I'd deem the money worth spending.

 

[pianistamediano]

I am going to a more casual milonga with an underground feel tonight, whose audience is a younger demographic than usual, so I will report my observations and findings.

So it is inconclusive; I had too much of a good time to properly assess what the dancers in their 20s and 30s were doing.

 

[Bailango]

I've been experimenting with different configurations. Tonight, I was surprised when I realised my left hand looked a lot like Gavito's. I'd honestly be satisfied if I could feel the Argentine embrace for myself, and if a teacher can explain the rationale/technical aspects, I'd deem the money worth spending.

Women who lead have raved to me of the embrace of the older women in BsAs. We don’t realize that an embrace reveals a lot about the feelings, very much like a hug does. If I ever get as eloquent as JiT, I might try to describe what a good embrace feels like. Sometimes you feel it when friend or some gives you a hug too. We have a few local followers that have really good embrace. You can feel it when you watch them dancing with someone else too.

P.S. It is less about different configurations. The left arm of the leader (right of the follower) doesn’t contribute a lot to the feeling of a good embrace.

 

[David_In_CA]

P.S - @David_In_CA can edit time be increased from 15 minutes. I typed this as part of previous post, but was already out of 15 minutes edit time by time I clicked on save.

I will ask. I don't have the power to make that change myself.