How should followers learn to dance tango?

From me(zoop); My teacher didn't care about class size and he wasn't making his living in dance. So he did as he thought best, and never got a lot of students.

IMO when you begin your Tango learning experience it is all about the teacher and I am having a lot of trouble figuring out at that stage why someone would want have private lessons with a teacher and not have have group lessons with that same teacher.

I'm not sure how your response relates to the part of my post you quoted (or anything I've posted)... I didn't have privates with one teacher and group classes with another (nor did I forgo group classes altogether as has been suggested) I had group class with a teacher who had small class size because so many people want to learn ganchos in lesson 2, but he taught the basics of lead and follow that the OP suggested followers need to take privates to get.
 
Shouldn't there be a more beginner-friendly approach to offering private lessons? I mean, most of my local studios/teachers don't have brochures/flyers/websites listing private lesson package specials and explaining/comparing with group classes. If privates are really so efficient for learning, wouldn't it be helpful to explain that? If I know that, say, one private will teach me as much as four group classes, it's something I would definitely consider.

I think it may be a matter of simple cost. Lets say a local teacher teaching in their own space charges (on average) $50 an hour for a private. (about the going rate around here for local teachers working independently or a private through a studio.. ranges from $40-$60) And that same teacher can accomodate 10 people in that same space for a class. Class rates would typically be around $10-$15 per person.

So in an hour, the teacher makes either $50 or $100+.
Why promote privates over group classes and lose money considering that few (if any) of those 10 students from the class would take privates weekly to make up the cost from not having a class.

If the teacher works out of a ballroom studio, they will have even less flexibility even if they preferred to make less $ and work with individuals.. the studio will want the biggest classes it can get, especially in this economy which is hurting non-essential businesses. Evenings are pretty full on the schedule. The studio isn't going to let the teacher have a room for a private unless there's just nothing else going on. They aren't going to let the teacher bring in $50 (some of which has to be given to the teacher!) when they can make at least $100 (minus cost of teacher)

So the studio allows scheduling of privates on in "empty" slots that they don't schedule classes... ie: middle of the day during the week. Not many people can do that, and the unemployed people who ARE free can't afford it. (Some studios have free space on weekends during the day.) Teachers will have to give some of the take to the studio, and if they have a relationship with the studio from teaching a class, there may be issues over teaching privates OUTSIDE the studio on their own.

As someone who prefers to teach privates, and tries to promote myself that way, I find that if you aren't, at the very least, a teacher who has a regular weekly class or two, its hard to get anyone to take from you. The thinking is that if you are any good, you'd have enough people for a class. :rolleyes: Few people want to try out a relatively unknown teacher through a private as a beginner in that dance. They want to go to the group class first and check it out. The teachers who REALLY get the most people seeking them out for instruction are the ones who are event organizers as well as group class teachers.

There is also the problem that people usually can't afford a private every week. People who take from me do so in a rather sporadic fashion. They also take from others and from every guest who comes through town (and we have a lot!) You don't get a reputation as a teacher without students that people can point to and say "S/he is So and So's student... Wow!" No one who takes from me is exclusively MY student.

The issue of not being able to afford it regularly I think is another reason why no one should have to rely on privates exclusively as a beginner. No matter how good the teacher is, one lesson a month (or less!) is not a good way to start a new subject for learning. Intense instruction less often is not retained as well as less intense instruction more often. An hour of a teachers undivided attention is fairly intense for many people... They get a LOT of feedback compared to what they get in a class... and they EXPECT a lot of feedback.... that's what they are paying for.

Beginners would learn better doing 20 minutes of instruction 3 times a week, than 1 hour every week, and certainly better than 1 hour every month. If you've got someone for whom money is no object that can pay for a weekly private (or more!) as a beginner, then sure... why not...

But who's got that kind of money these days just to TRY a new hobby?
 
Private classes are usually offered before 18:00, group classes later. You will gain the biggest profit, if you sell 10 private classes during the day and have them all back for a group class in the evening. However, this is more the topic how to milk to most of my students

The quickest way for a follower to learn is:
Find one of the magic four remaining teachers.
Have him fall madly in love with you and
dance tango all day for free.

There is a video instruction for that:
Tango Lesson by Sally Potter
 
The quickest way for a follower to learn is:
Find one of the magic four remaining teachers.
Have him fall madly in love with you and
dance tango all day for free.

There is a video instruction for that:
Tango Lesson by Sally Potter

BWAHAHA!
Touche'
I think we've settled it.:uplaugh:
 
Private classes are usually offered before 18:00, group classes later. You will gain the biggest profit, if you sell 10 private classes during the day and have them all back for a group class in the evening. However, this is more the topic how to milk to most of my students

The quickest way for a follower to learn is:
Find one of the magic four remaining teachers.
Have him fall madly in love with you and
dance tango all day for free.


There is a video instruction for that:
Tango Lesson by Sally Potter
Checkmate. MODs you can lock this thread now.

:mrgreen:
 
The quickest way for a follower to learn is:
Find one of the magic four remaining teachers.
Have him fall madly in love with you and
dance tango all day for free.

There is a video instruction for that:
Tango Lesson by Sally Potter
*snort*choke*LOLOL!!!*

OMG, that was perfect.

Yep, agreed, this thread can now be locked! :D
 
The quickest way for a follower to learn is:
Find one of the magic four remaining teachers.
Have him fall madly in love with you and
dance tango all day for free.

There is a video instruction for that:
Tango Lesson by Sally Potter

Too funny..but also not far from truth. Who doesn't know at least a few followers who were helped along quite a bit through their relationships with advanced dancers?

And Zoopsia, thanks for your explanation. Makes sense.
 
Comprehensive instruction in Argentine tango includes a number of essential elements. One is to see how tango is danced. Another is to learn that tango is improvisational and to develop an understanding of the structure from which the dance is constructed. Another is to learn to move to the music. Another is to learn lead and follow skills. Another is to learn principles of good form. Last is to learn steps and patterns. None of these video series provide full coverage all of these topics. To get the most complete coverage of topics, I generally recommend Christy Coté's and George Garcia's The Art of Improvisation, the Trenner/Burdett videos, or the Trenner/Shulman videos combined with the Zotto/Godoy, Coté/Garcia (Syllabus) or Gloria y Eduardo videos. The Pugliese videos are particularly good in their coverage of turns.
http://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#comprehensive

I've only seen a bit of Christy Coté / George Garcia material, but not on basics. I suppose I COULD spend a lot of time reviewing this stuff, but, I've already got too many irons in the fire.

Some of you have proposed a teaching sequences (which I haven't gone back and reviewed) so, essentially, what sequence of teaching basics is most productive in achieving results?
How long did it take to come to this / these conclusions?
Have "you" (singular or plural) used "adaptive management" / iterative design to arrive at your conclusion(s) and teaching sequence?
Can you clearly define what students are to get from each exercise / class, or even (GASP!) pattern? etc
And do things build on each other?

PS When I'm "done" with the dozen or so books that I have out of the library, I may have time to look more into things like the Dinzel book, etc.
 
I'm assuming you are asking about class situation, rather than private lessons. Is that so?

...Some of you have proposed a teaching sequences (which I haven't gone back and reviewed) so, essentially, what sequence of teaching basics is most productive in achieving results?
How long did it take to come to this / these conclusions?

About five years.

Have "you" (singular or plural) used "adaptive management" / iterative design to arrive at your conclusion(s) and teaching sequence?

Not sure what that means.

Can you clearly define what students are to get from each exercise / class, or even (GASP!) pattern? etc

Absolutely.

And do things build on each other?

Yes.
 
I'm not sure how your response relates to the part of my post you quoted

The point I took from your post was that it was the teacher who was the most important crtieria not whether it was a private lesson or group class.

That being the case, why would somebody want to have a private lesson with a teacher but feel a group lesson from that teacher was not acceptable?
 
The point I took from your post was that it was the teacher who was the most important crtieria not whether it was a private lesson or group class.

That being the case, why would somebody want to have a private lesson with a teacher but feel a group lesson from that teacher was not acceptable?
I thought Zoopsia was in favor of the group classes.

:confused:
 
The point I took from your post was that it was the teacher who was the most important crtieria not whether it was a private lesson or group class.

That being the case, why would somebody want to have a private lesson with a teacher but feel a group lesson from that teacher was not acceptable?

Well, that wasn't exactly my point, but I can see how you got there.

Um... not sure whether I agree or disagree. The teacher determines what to focus on and what to encourage the students to focus on or treat as important. So yes, the teacher is pretty important in whether or not beginners get a good foundation to start.

My point was that a first timer should be able to get what they need in a group setting for at least the first month or two of weekly classes (whether they DO is a different issue) It does seem that if a teacher taught those same things to a private beginner student, then you'd have to wonder why they WOULDN"T teach them to a beginner group class. If a teacher teaches a follower to follow when working individually, why not teach that to the group class of the same level? So your point has merit.

After a certain level, basic principles have been laid down (hopefully) and the individual quirks of each person become more of a stumbling block to their progress. Those quirks are also more obvious to the teacher as well... when someone can't yet do ANYTHING, its harder to determine what is ignorance vs lack of experience/practice vs a unique issue of that person alone that is atypical of students learning the same material. Its not just about the student... the teacher has to be able to separate the student's individual issues from the usual issues that are almost certain to be present as well. That's pretty hard when giving a stranger their very first lesson!

So if you are asking why I would say beginners should be able to take a group class, but then go on to say that I personally take privates from teachers from whom I don't take classes... well, its because (especially as an experienced follower) I am past making the usual errors of women first learning tango and have specific issues that need specific solutions to improve my dancing. I won't get that in a class.

Add to that the problem of classes being step oriented (and too often leader oriented), and even moreso as you get more advanced, there is no value in a class for me as a follower at this stage of the game. I do take them as a leader now and then. I also doubt I would have been able to incorporate the level of correction I am getting now when I first started.

These things come from either a lifetime of moving a certain way, or having specific body problems. They aren't just that I "developed bad habits from not knowing better" in tango specifically. Some of my issues have been VERY hard to improve despite working privately with some very good teachers trying to help me AND knowing from early on that there WAS a problem. I'm beginning to think that I need to find someone who will show me how to have these issues and compensate for them, knowing they won't ever go away, rather than try to fix them!
 
I'm beginning to think that I need to find someone who will show me how to have these issues and compensate for them, knowing they won't ever go away, rather than try to fix them!
Curious if it's that you know what the problem(s) is(are), and just can't get them solved, or if no one has diagnosed them adequately, or ???
 
Realizing that this is the very reason why there are so many different teachers, I can not agree with your post en total.
Comprehensive instruction in Argentine tango includes a number of essential elements. One is to see how tango is danced. Another is to learn that tango is improvisational and to develop an understanding of the structure from which the dance is constructed. Another is to learn to move to the music. Another is to learn lead and follow skills. Another is to learn principles of good form. Last is to learn steps and patterns.
Agreed 100%. Good point.

None of these video series provide full coverage all of these topics. To get the most complete coverage of topics, I generally recommend Christy Coté's and George Garcia's The Art of Improvisation,
Practically worthless, unless your idea of AT is patterns often laced with unnecessary steps fore/aft. Let me say that George is extremely good, although one wouldn't know it from these vids.
Great for basic understandings and a good solid foundation.
the Zotto/Godoy, or Gloria y Eduardo videos. The Pugliese videos are particularly good in their coverage of turns.
Most excellent!
so, essentially, what sequence of teaching basics is most productive in achieving results?
It's all so simple, really. Begin with still movement, and....
...clearly define what students are to get from each exercise / class, or even (GASP!) pattern? etc. And [how they] build on each other?
my bolded insertion
 

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