injury on the dance floor

[pianistamediano]

Pro-am J&J in ballroom is hard because pro's already have issues teaching their own students how not to hurt them... They do not want to be yanked around or hung on by students they have never interacted with before. I know some pros don't even like to social dance because of concerns of wear and tear. It's a bit sad really.

Forgive my ignorance, but what makes amateurs more likely to hurt pros in ballroom, compared to swing?

 

[Bailango]

Forgive my ignorance, but what makes amateurs more likely to hurt pros in ballroom, compared to swing?

If we talk about probable injuries due to lack of skills, the pro instructors in the follower’s role are more likely to be at the receiving end. Lack of skills in leader is more likely to cause an injury to a follower. The other way round is possible but chances are lower (follower back leading in to a move where the leader has to suddenly absorb or catch their weight. Or stepping on partner with a heel. Most common example is followers launching into a dip on their own without being led). An incompetent leader has more ways to cause injury to a follower. An incompetent follower has less ways to harm a leader.

I am not sure if ballroom has anything unique that should make pro fear of injury more than in swing. Other than the fact ballroom pros make almost all their primary income from being a professional instructor/dancer. Swing pros refers to skill level more than whether it is the primary income stream. Getting injured could lead to the loss of primary income stream. That’s a significant risk.

Most of the ballroom dancing prep for competitions is choreographed set of moves/figures along the 4 lines (square/rectangle shaped lod) as per syllabus category from what I understand. Swing is completely improvised. Therefore in ballroom both leader and follower should know what to expect. From my little understanding since it is choreographed you also know what the following or the next move and figure is.

Atleast the international ballroom syllabus I think has bronze, silver, gold levels. I think it is unlikely that an am competing for several years in silver or gold category would cause a pro an injury other than as a sheer unfortunate accident.

 

[Mengu]

There is another category in WCS for both strictly and J&J where the age difference between partners has to be 20 or 30 years. I don’t remember how it is labeled.

Strictly Generational. Usually 20 year difference. There is also Strictly Masters which is where both partners need to be 50+.

Which leads me to the question that I had been wanting to ask. If you are competing in the ballroom for more than five or ten years whether as am-am or pro-am, the am dancers should have gotten very good. The skill difference between pro and am after ten years of practicing should be very narrow?

Not necessarily... number of hours of dancing and regularity of dancing are more significant factors than number of years of dancing. Learning age also matters quite a bit, as well as other factors, like your teachers, focus, health, and life situations. 10 years is a long time or a short time, depending on how you spend it. You can go from newcomer to champion, or you can still be struggling with balancing on one foot or a slow weight transfer.

Forgive my ignorance, but what makes amateurs more likely to hurt pros in ballroom, compared to swing?

Mostly closed position... Pros are generally quite good at protecting themselves from more sudden injuries, by maintaining a good frame, balance, and training agility. But the way a student hangs on their pro for years and years in closed position, takes more of a toll, than dances in open position. In social dancing this is more manageable, since you can just make things smaller, slow it down, take it easy. But trying to dance competitively with a student who isn't trained to hold their own can be quite taxing.

Also there is more focus dancing swing socially, so most amateurs tend to already be decent social dancers who know to take care of their partner (unless they are very new to their role). And when competing swing, you're basically dancing a social dance with more focus on some technical aspects. In ballroom competitions, I've met people who have never learned basic social dances, and only know their competitive routines. This leaves skills like adapting to different partners very much lacking.

 

[pianistamediano]

But the way a student hangs on their pro for years and years in closed position, takes more of a toll...

... But trying to dance competitively with a student who isn't trained to hold their own can be quite taxing.

All that sounds horrifying! Why aren't amateurs learning to not do all these things — or, well, pros forcing their students to learn proper technique, since it's their bodies and future livelihoods at stake? The way both of you write, there's definitely dancers who don't hang onto their partners or do things that place too much stress on their counterparts.

 

[lucia_l]

As my husband dances socially and is small, (115 lb- 125 lbs) I am very aware that some women will put their actual weight on the lead. We'd come home and he would complain about certain follows who literally hang their weight on him in Waltz, Foxtrot and so on. It's sort of like they fell into a swoon and he has to hold them up.

I've been paranoid about putting too much weight on the leads-- and I have had several pros tell me I do NOT rest might weight on them. Mind you.... I do need to hold my arms up more-- but I'm not literally hanging the weight of my full torso on the lead.

So I can believe that pros dancing Standard Ballroom could definitely end up with overuse injuries. One of the advantages of smooth is the lead can at least get the follow off him by leading some under arm turns.

Some Am dancers can persist in this behavior a long, long time.

Without necessarily getting stupendously better myself, I'm beginning to be able to see flaws in other people's dancing and I can definitely see how Ams can injure leads in ballroom.

Ams can also grip hands when the lead wants to lead a turn or when the am just feels unbalanced. This can be bad for people's shoulders. (I cop to this accusation.)

I"d love to have jack and jills in Smooth and Rhythm. That said, I can't blame pros from being unenthusiastic about the notion.

 

[raindance]

A pro I knew a few years back used to really work with his followers (students) to hold their own weight and move themselves. And his students worked on that and tried their best. Still, there were moments that he would bluntly remind them

"I'm a professional dancer, not a U-haul!"

Said in the right tone of voice, that elicited a chuckle and the student would put more effort into carrying themselves and moving themselves properly instead of making him haul them around the dance floor.

But it does take a lot of time an effort for a student to learn to dance like that consistently, particularly when they're also continually trying to build all the other layers of technique they are working on. And some students learn it even more slowly than others, not for lack of trying, but due to age, arthritis, years of hunched posture from working at a desk for decades, poor balance, etc. Smart pros are certainly trying to teach students to do this properly, and good students are trying to learn it. But there it all takes time. And once one student gets it going well, there are more beginner students for the pro to work with!

 

[joy]

Also there is more focus dancing swing socially, so most amateurs tend to already be decent social dancers who know to take care of their partner (unless they are very new to their role).

I wouldn’t give swing that much credit. There’s multiple threads on the WCS Facebook forums complaining about leads hurting their follows and vice versa. Competitors push in search of points to advance.

From a recent Westie Discussion of the Day on Facebook:
Today's question comes from an anonymous follower:

In general but specifically for following, what do you when someone is dancing in a way that is hurting you in a comp while still showing your best dancing? I’m really struggling to showcase myself while keeping myself safe in those instances so any advice would appreciated!

 

[joy]

In Smooth, now that we are further along, my Pro actually is demanding more of my weight. Sometimes he tells me to take the Lead position and he shows me as a Follow how much he wants me to hang back, and I get exhausted just leading him. Leading takes strength.

 

[Mengu]

All that sounds horrifying! Why aren't amateurs learning to not do all these things — or, well, pros forcing their students to learn proper technique, since it's their bodies and future livelihoods at stake? The way both of you write, there's definitely dancers who don't hang onto their partners or do things that place too much stress on their counterparts.

Many reasons... I knew one student 70+, who took lessons for years, and had some physical issues (had to wear a waist brace). He hung on his instructor for balance the whole time he danced. She would basically do extra workouts to be able to support his weight. Alternative would be that he stops dancing...

But generally the reason is lack of training. Sometimes instructors aren't spending enough time, or give up after some failed attempts... Sometimes instructors aren't trained enough to differentiate connection that's "pleasantly heavy" versus "unpleasantly heavy", and induce their bad habits onto their students. Often times, instructors spend a lot more time on how their students look, instead of how their students feel. Getting the right feel takes much longer and is much harder to teach than carrying the student to a win.

 

[Mengu]

I wouldn’t give swing that much credit.

Yeah I should have added the caveat that the problem isn't absent in swing. Just less... I've had a follower who likely weighed no more than 90lb, pull on me like a tow truck... I had to make a decision competing with her, to either clamp down and accept it's going to be a physical dance, or go slack and accept a sucky dance. Good news, about 8 months later, I got her during another prelim, and her connection was significantly lighter, and she was much more pleasant to dance with.

But generally in my J&J's, I've had maybe 2 follows that were rather rough with me, most of them have had workable or better connection.

It might be higher percentage of problems on the leader's end I don't know. I only competed once as follow, and promptly pointed out. But I can see some leaders getting overzealous with their leads.

 

[pianistamediano]

Thanks for all the clarifications, I've gotten a better perspective on how things are in ballroom dancing, especially on the competitive side of things.

I guess what makes it so abhorrent for me isn't the whole Pro-Am thing or competing, but that in social dancing, the number one thing we are warned against is doing anything that could hurt our partner or the dancers around us.

Teachers will drop everything and focus on, say, reducing tension in a leader's body so as to stop him from holding the follower too hard. Or repeatedly reminding a follower to stay on her own axis and not place too much of her own weight on the leader. This is done at the expense of whatever they're learning, be it a step or sequence. Nothing could be worse than hurting another person, be it in the short term or long term. And most professional dancers, while they still go out social dancing, do avoid dancing with dancers they perceive could cause them harm because they're unwilling to risk their bodies and future earning potential.

I'm still very concerned about what seems to be a relatively large and widespread potential for misuse/overuse injuries though. I can understand amateurs, as paying customers, wanting to focus on things that will help them win competitions, and the pros doing their best to accomodate that desire, but it still feels wrong that the risks of overuse/misuse aren't given much greater importance in more cases (naturally, I am not implying most or all cases), especially if the Pro-Am relationship is (as I understand) meant to be long-term.

 

[Bailango]

Wear and tear on body from excessive stress physical stress is a natural process. It can be seen in the athletes in most sports who are in 20s and 30s. They get routinely injured due to extreme physical stress they put their bodies under.

I don’t understand the last comment about carry another human on one side of the body. I thought proper technique in dancing is to minimize injuries. That includes not having to carry the balance of your partner. Are not both partners in ballroom dancing on their own axis and responsible to maintain their own balance?

 

[Bailango]

Yeah I should have added the caveat that the problem isn't absent in swing. Just less... I've had a follower who likely weighed no more than 90lb, pull on me like a tow truck... I had to make a decision competing with her, to either clamp down and accept it's going to be a physical dance, or go slack and accept a sucky dance. Good news, about 8 months later, I got her during another prelim, and her connection was significantly lighter, and she was much more pleasant to dance with.

But generally in my J&J's, I've had maybe 2 follows that were rather rough with me, most of them have had workable or better connection.

It might be higher percentage of problems on the leader's end I don't know. I only competed once as follow, and promptly pointed out. But I can see some leaders getting overzealous with their leads.

There indeed are some partners in social dancing that are pain to dance with. They soon learn that if they don’t improve people will not dance with them. Some get feedback given to them.

I always thought and was told ballroom spends more time on teaching technique, balance, timing than social dances. In other social dancing threads we routinely discussed the unpleasant dances. The unpleasant dances aren’t routine. They are exceptions unless you are stuck in a low quality scene. I have done a lot of social dancing. Some times four or five times a week for several years. Most partners at intermediate level and above don’t have flaws that could lead to harmful dancing or injuries. Accidents can happen. They are far and few inbetween. Hanging on to a partner is considered very negatively in social dancing.

Isn’t there any minimum criteria of how good an am should be before a pro lets them enter competition?

 

[j_alexandra]

There indeed are some partners in social dancing that are pain to dance with. They soon learn that if they don’t improve people will not dance with them. Some get feedback given to them.

From what I read on DF, AT mores, values, practices, culture in this are so different from ballroom, it would be useful to stop comparing them.

I always thought and was told ballroom spends more time on teaching technique, balance, timing than social dances. In other social dancing threads we routinely discussed the unpleasant dances. The unpleasant dances aren’t routine. They are exceptions unless you are stuck in a low quality scene. I have done a lot of social dancing. Some times four or five times a week for several years. Most partners at intermediate level and above don’t have flaws that could lead to harmful dancing or injuries. Accidents can happen. They are far and few in between. Hanging on to a partner is considered very negatively in social dancing.

Social dancing and pro-am competition dancing do not equate. Not that one is superior to the other, they're just different, and require different talents and skills from the professional.

Many pro-am ballroom teachers work very hard at getting their students to do the work necessary to manage their own body weight well. That can be a long process, if it happens at all. Whether the student actually learns what is taught is on the student. Oodles of pro-am student competitors simply want to be moved, not to move themselves; to be held up, not to hold themselves up. Many pro-am teachers comply, and haul their students around the studio and/or competition floor. But mostly, they don't social dance for fun.

One of the amateur men who social dances with me, who routinely hangs on me, pushes my shoulders around* and wrenches me into uncomfortable positions, asked me, "Why is it that when I social dance with my teacher, she makes me feel like a great dancer, but when I dance with you, I feel like a bad dancer?" or WTTE.

I told him, in plain English, "You're paying her. You're not paying me. Of course, she's going to make you feel like a great dancer. From me, you get honesty." Apparently, it had never occurred to him that if you pay someone to dance with you, that person has an financial interest in making you happy.

*To wrench this back on topic: speaking of injury on the dance floor; if I do several dances with him in the course of a social, my shoulders ache for days. Extra attention to shoulder work with the Yamuna balls helps.

Isn’t there any minimum criteria of how good an am should be before a pro lets them enter competition?

Nope. That's why ballroom competitions have so many levels, including "newcomer," and judges have different expectations for dancers at those levels. Much depends on your teacher. Mine would not let me compete for three years after I started taking lessons from him, and during those years, he warned me against telling people who my teacher was (pretty sure that last was a joke, but I was so intimidated, I complied).

 

[Greybeard]

Isn’t there any minimum criteria of how good an am should be before a pro lets them enter competition?

The biggest criteria is "Can they pay?" and "if I keep them from competing now, will that impact my future earnings?"

That said, I suspect that a decent teacher could teach a decent dancer to dance one style (Rhythm, Smooth, Latin or Standard) well enough to look like they belonged on the pre-bronze competition floor in three to six months. I'm not saying they'd win, but they would not get kicked or laughed off the floor.

Another thing to think about is the teacher's reputation. Bringing someone that belongs in pre-bronze to a silver event shows the teacher can't evaluate the student's skill.