injury on the dance floor

[Cal]

The biggest criteria is "Can they pay?" and "if I keep them from competing now, will that impact my future earnings?"

That said, I suspect that a decent teacher could teach a decent dancer to dance one style (Rhythm, Smooth, Latin or Standard) well enough to look like they belonged on the pre-bronze competition floor in three to six months. I'm not saying they'd win, but they would not get kicked or laughed off the floor.

Another thing to think about is the teacher's reputation. Bringing someone that belongs in pre-bronze to a silver event shows the teacher can't evaluate the student's skill.

….or the Pro is perfectly capable of evaluating the student’s true level, but the (paying) student is starry-eyed and insists on entering the higher skill level and the Pro gives way in order to keep the student happy and keep the income stream (as you hinted at in your post)….

…..or the student knows that they are awful and will place last no matter what, so instead of placing last for the umpteenth time in pre-bronze, they’d rather place last while trying Silver because, even if they place last, at least they get to try different syllabus figures….

 

[lucia_l]

In Smooth, now that we are further along, my Pro actually is demanding more of my weight. Sometimes he tells me to take the Lead position and he shows me as a Follow how much he wants me to hang back, and I get exhausted just leading him. Leading takes strength.

Yes. But I'm going to go into 'words' and concepts here.

By weight, you mean he wants to feel a force or a pressure in his arm or on the connection at his hip, right? I actually had a discussion with my pro about the distinction between "weight" and "force" in physics. First, "weight" is a force. The "weight" my pro wants to feel is, technically, a "force". It's not really "weight" because it's not offsetting the force of gravity exerts on me; and it's the force of gravity that is litterally "weight". We discussed this distinction.... (I don't know why other than this is me here.) I think he was worried I was going to object to the use of the word "weight". We both agreed it was better for dancers to call that force a weight because the word force can cause people to do all sorts of weird things many of which result in yanking or jerking people around.

But the distinction matters in this conversation where we are discussing something people do wrongthat can over a long time injure the Pro. When I said Am dancers put their weight on the pro, I mean literally weight. Go up, drape your arms on your pros shoulder and literally drop off your feet like you were hanging on him like a dead weight on a pole. That's an exaggeration of course. They don't put 100% of their weight on their pro. But they are really, truly using their pro to offset the force of gravity. That means they are literally hanging their weight on him.

We want "connections" and "pressure".

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

Isn’t there any minimum criteria of how good an am should be before a pro lets them enter competition?

Nope

 

[Bailango]

Is this hanging on to pro problem irrespective of whether am is a leader or follower? Are their less am leaders?

Why is there a need to hang on to a partner?

 

[fiesta0618]

Is this hanging on to pro problem irrespective of whether am is a leader or follower?

Yes, but it manifests a little differently because the hold and roles are not perfectly symmetrical.

Are their less am leaders?

Generally yes.

Why is there a need to hang on to a partner?

There is never a need. It is always a flaw. It comes about for one of two possible reasons:

1. The dancer has untrained posture and frame, so that everything "droops" unintentionally. Meanwhile, their well-trained partner is unwilling to sacrifice these basic elements, so they use their superior posture and frame to "prop up" the weak one.
   
   
2. The dancer is trying to create connective pressure, but does so improperly. In this situation, they apply connective pressure upward, downward, or laterally instead of inline with their partner's center. This problem is actually worse than the first one, because the partner will need to struggle against that force just to protect themselves and their own balance, regardless of skill level or aesthetic intent.

Scenario 2 can even happen with fairly well-trained amateurs, because posture, frame, and connection are never conclusively "mastered." It is always possible to improve them. But every attempt to refine these elements can potentially lead into the mistake.

 

[lucia_l]

Is this hanging on to pro problem irrespective of whether am is a leader or follower? Are their less am leaders?

Yes, hanging on to the pro is a problem period. It's just that I'm familiar with what follows do owing to complaints by my husband. They rest a lot of weight.

Yes. Am follows greatly exceed Am leads.

Now, I am guilty of not holding my arms up. A pro can use his arms to hold my arms up-- in which case, he ends up carrying that weight. But it's not the full heavy resting my torso weight on the lead. ( Me not holding the weight of my arms up is wrong too. )

I haven't felt am or pro hanging on to me. The bigger problem with am dancers-- and not so much in smooth-- is leads that "jerk" or try to force the follow rather than "suggest". Suggestion can have some degree of force, but there's a point where your just getting shoved.

A pro follow who teaches would have to tell you more about the ways in which am leads do things wrong that can cause damage to teachers.

Why is there a need to hang on to a partner?

Need? It's not a need. It's just done.

In rhythm when I feel unsteady, I tend to "grab". It's bad.

Unsteadiness is often caused by doing something wrong. The correct fix is to learn to do it right. But learning to do something right, be grounded etc. is not instantaneous.

 

[lucia_l]

Nope

As PNP says: there is no minimum quality required for the am in a pro-am competition.

That would be a legitimate reason why pros would not want to have to try to compete with an am whose quality they don't know and they can't gauge before they start.

I mean: I know I can do Smooth dances socially. But the leads usually aren't trying to push to win a competition. So if they get a follow who just plops on them and doesn't move, they just lead boxes, left right turns, under arm turns etc. That's fine socially. But a pro who is supposed to try to win is going to be in a bad position.

For dances that are often in closed position, being randomly assigned an am follow who doesn't carry her own weight, doesn't move etc could be very, very taxing on the pro. I don't see quite the same problem in dances like WCS where the dancing might be lack luster, but am isn't going to drape herself on the pro.

It's likely that each dance style has it's particular issues. But if we think about it a bit, we may be able to grasp some "whys" for why many club dances translate well into "jack and jill" type competitions and at least Smooth and Standard don't so much.

 

[j_alexandra]

So I can believe that pros dancing Standard Ballroom could definitely end up with overuse injuries.

I have a friend whose regular amateur Standard partner tells me she is a gifted, intuitive follow. I led her once, for a couple of minutes, then asked her, "Do you hang on him like this?" "Like what?" She was completely unaware that she hung on me. My shoulders ached for days, from just that couple of minutes dancing. (She actually is, however, a gifted, intuitive follow; it's like she can read a leader's mind. Fascinating.)

She asked her am partner, of course, if she hangs on him. He said no. I can't help but feel that, since he regularly bench presses hundreds of pounds, he's just so strong, and he is so used to her hanging on him, he doesn't even feel it.

 

[lucia_l]

She asked her am partner, of course, if she hangs on him. He said no. I can't help but feel that, since he regularly bench presses hundreds of pounds, he's just so strong, and he is so used to her hanging on him, he doesn't even feel it.

Some leads think it's normal for the am to rest weight.

Once, in a group lesson, while pointing toward my left hand, the am lead said, "Don't worry about resting your weight on me. I'm strong enough." I told him my teacher said I wasn't supposed to do that! He said, "Oh. I didn't know that!"

Not resting your weight on the lead is NOT one of the first things teachers cover and they definitely barely mention it in group lesson. I'd only discussed the issue because I'd mentioned my husband's complaint to the teacher. (The fact I was never as bad as some others excuses not mentioning it to some degree.)

Like it or not, for a variety of reasons (likely including a degree of marketing your product) initial lessons tend to be "how to do steps" with a modest amount of discussion of "frame". Very little "tone" and so on. Even if a person teaching group lesson mentions, frame, tone etc. beginning students in group lessons seem to tend to focus on "the sequence of steps" or for leads "the hand gestures associated with leading". ( Some beginning leads seem to get this idea that leading is sort of like Flag Semphore, morse code or signalling between the pitcher or catcher during a baseball game. They don't immediately grasp that the lead must be in the right direction, at the right time and needs to be sensed-- and that even needs to be in context. Mind you, some follows think this too- and it's not an impossible way to dance.)

Smooth pro learned a teaching "technique" from one of his coaches. In some lessons, he'll just let me totally drop my arms or "go where my frame puts him". It can be pretty funny actually -- but then, I'm not fully "draped" on his shoulders.

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

She asked her am partner, of course, if she hangs on him. He said no. I can't help but feel that, since he regularly bench presses hundreds of pounds, he's just so strong, and he is so used to her hanging on him, he doesn't even feel it.

I’ve asked my teacher about this. It is OBVIOUS from our videos that I sometimes hang on him; sometimes just a lazily resting left elbow; but sometimes a desperate “oh crap I lost my balance I’m gonna fall over” type of clutching. The latter kind, he notices & criticizes (justifiably). But the former - he swears he doesn’t even notice. Doesn’t feel it. And I believe him about this, because he doesn’t hesitate to point out everything else I need to improve - so there’s no reason he’d try to spare my ego about this one thing.

My assumption is that after 25 years of teaching pro/am, he really doesn’t feel it. To him, it feels like just a regular part of his job.

He’ll be 49 this summer. No shoulder or knee surgery needed yet…knock wood….

 

[pianistamediano]

… beginning students in group lessons seem to tend to focus on "the sequence of steps" or for leads "the hand gestures associated with leading". ( Some beginning leads seem to get this idea that leading is sort of like Flag Semphore, morse code or signalling between the pitcher or catcher during a baseball game. They don't immediately grasp that the lead must be in the right direction, at the right time and needs to be sensed-- and that even needs to be in context. Mind you, some follows think this too- and it's not an impossible way to dance.)

Good to know that ballroom dancers encounter many of the same problems too! I like to call that phenomenon dancing by numbers — obviously, there will be people who enjoy that and don't want to go further, and that's fine, because it isn't hurting anyone else.

Not resting your weight on the lead is NOT one of the first things teachers cover and they definitely barely mention it in group lesson. I'd only discussed the issue because I'd mentioned my husband's complaint to the teacher. (The fact I was never as bad as some others excuses not mentioning it to some degree.)

I'm thinking it's because they want their students to get some basics down so that they can actually start dancing, for some definition of dancing? It makes sense, since that generates a feeling of accomplishment (wow, I can actually dance!) and keep them coming back. And that's what usually happens in beginner classes in tango too.

But I'd expect it to be part of a class on actually dancing with someone and making them feel comfortable/safe dancing soon after the first few classes, and occasional reminders after, just to nip it in the bud.

 

[pianistamediano]

My assumption is that after 25 years of teaching pro/am, he really doesn’t feel it. To him, it feels like just a regular part of his job.

He’ll be 49 this summer. No shoulder or knee surgery needed yet…knock wood….

Oof! That and this post:

She asked her am partner, of course, if she hangs on him. He said no. I can't help but feel that, since he regularly bench presses hundreds of pounds, he's just so strong, and he is so used to her hanging on him, he doesn't even feel it.

makes me think that given the amount of conditioning ballroom pros should have (which is a lot? I'm going by what I've heard of dancesport pros' training regimes), they would be less affected by having to support a partner with inadequate technique.

Are there classes/workshops in ballroom dancing for sustainable dancing? Things like minimising physical impact on one's and others' bodies, developing stamina for comps/long periods of dancing, anything to ensure that one can continue dancing well into their old age without having to give it up because of infirmity. Given the greater probability of onset of issues such as arthritis, MS, Parkinson's, hip replacements, I'd expect there to be something.

I don't hear much about this in tango; it seems like other things like pilates and yoga are used tangentially towards this aim, and I think only bits and pieces are mentioned here and there in classes and privates. @JournalInTime is probably the only dancer I know who works extensively on this.

(Though I suppose that this kind of thing — body care and conditioning — is much more within the purview of pilates and yoga and related disciplines. I'm just a bit concerned that most tango dancers, while still more likely to practise such things, don't seem to care that much. Proper tango technique is excellent and goes a long way because it promotes good habits, but that isn't sufficient for taking care of one's body, I feel.)

 

[JournalInTime]

Given the greater probability of onset of issues such as arthritis, MS, Parkinson's, hip replacements, I'd expect there to be something.

I don't hear much about this in tango; it seems like other things like pilates and yoga are used tangentially towards this aim, and I think only bits and pieces are mentioned here and there in classes and privates. @JournalInTime is probably the only dancer I know who works extensively on this.

Quoting the first line by way of explanation: My partner (life and dance) has MS, and suffered paralysis of one entire side; the paralysis has since remitted, but she has residual issues in her foot on that side, and of course fatigue. She uses Pilates specifically to cope with this, and her Pilates coach is also our Argentine tango coach. These considerations are instrumental to the Pilates-Argentine tango crossover in our couple. I would not claim that it's normal, but on the other hand, I would not deny that it's immensely helpful to both of us. My specific goal with all this isn't my partner's (cope with MS), but "sustainable dancing," as I'd like to continue Argentine tango into my 70s and 80s.

 

[lucia_l]

Oof! That and this post:



makes me think that given the amount of conditioning ballroom pros should have (which is a lot? I'm going by what I've heard of dancesport pros' training regimes), they would be less affected by having to support a partner with inadequate technique.

My 5'7" tiny framed 120 lb husband never be able to get himself into the condition that allows him to easily deal with a 160 lb women seriously draping her mass on him during a 45 minute lesson and then repeating that with multiple customers.

6'1" Smooth Pro might be able to. (He has photos from back when he was body building. He was seriously big. He tries to keep trim now, and he's still pretty muscular relative to dance pros.)

Are there classes/workshops in ballroom dancing for sustainable dancing? Things like minimising physical impact on one's and others' bodies, developing stamina for comps/long periods of dancing, anything to ensure that one can continue dancing well into their old age without having to give it up because of infirmity. Given the greater probability of onset of issues such as arthritis, MS, Parkinson's, hip replacements, I'd expect there to be something.

At least in group lessons, the teacher is often sort of "lecturing" and "exhibitting" for a fair fraction of the time. Then everyone tries the step and the teacher is usually in the circulation.

I read a masters thesis on some history of ballroom. (I didn't keep the document.) It claimed that when they were founded, part of the incentive to develop or emphasize the "smooth" style at AM and FADS was that switching to the open frame at least gave the pros a break part of the time while still giving students the "dance" experience. I don't know if this is actually true. But I do know if you encounter someone who really, truly drapes themselves on you, maximizing open positions, or even shadow can reduce this.

You still have the issue of holding up her arms-- but... well... if it's social, you can probably deal with this a while. If you are a teacher, you need to nag the follow into doing that right along with all the other things you want her to do right. There is time in private lessons, and proper technique can be discussed. But it still takes time, effort and different students are going to catch on at different rates.

I don't hear much about this in tango; it seems like other things like pilates and yoga are used tangentially towards this aim, and I think only bits and pieces are mentioned here and there in classes and privates. @JournalInTime is probably the only dancer I know who works extensively on this.

Good posture, using your core, having body awareness all help. Pilates and yoga help with those.

I tend to break through my hips and my core. When I do this, the upper frame drops. Even if I'm "holding my arms up" relative to my core, my arms are still moving down relative to my pro. So this ends up as weight on his left arm to 'hold up my arm'. That's effort for him-- and also interferes with his ability to dance too since he has to deal with the task of holding my arm up.

We were seriously working on this yesterday. (This is not to say we have not discussed it before. But focus shifts. Yesterday, the two issues "holding up arms and tone to avoid breaking" and "clarity of timing". On the latter, I laughed and pointed out that the criticisms are getting rather sophisticated. I am evidently now too "melodious". The problem is evidently the feet. I need my feet to be more percussive. The feet must be stacatto-- I am to worry that the body will become. )

Anyway, the problem of holding up the arms is slightly different from the "draping your weight" I was talking about before. The draping the weight is the follow really using her left arm to support herself on his right shoulder.

 

[JournalInTime]

It's totally true that a leader can be too strong for his own long-term dance health. I know this because I'm unusually strong for my height and weight (genetics, not gym), and I accompanied beginners in lessons for 20 hours/week for almost 4 years. Many leaned, pulled, dragged, and draped (this is Argentine tango, but that look is supposed to be an illusion there . . .), and I just put up with it. In the end, it cost me a hernia I didn't even feel at first. At least it wasn't my spinal column.