injury on the dance floor

[lucia_l]

[...]Many leaned, pulled, dragged, and draped (this is Argentine tango, but that look is supposed to be an illusion there . . .), and I just put up with it. In the end, it cost me a hernia I didn't even feel at first. At least it wasn't my spinal column.

Lots of guys put up with it. One difficulty is you can't just tell someone not to lean, drag, drape. You have to explain how to not do it while doing other things like step sequences or moving. And the woman often has to do it in heels, and even if she does't have to wear them, she may want to!

I danced socially with a guy who, in a surprised voice, remarked that I really moved myself and he wished his wife did. Probably would have been better if he'd ended after the compliment and moved on to the compliant..... but I get it. I told him my pro focused on how I could move myself and made me do it in many lessons. It took a while to do it. (And no.... I have not fully mastered it!! But provided the lead is clear enough, I move myself more than lots of social dancers. )

I don't know who their teacher is. I am under the impression the two mostly dance with each other. Also, they prepare a fair number of show cases, or demonstrates with each other. So it could be that the the amount of time learning choreo and "polishing" for a showcase that is happening soon squeezes out working on things like "moving". Similar things could happen with any flaw especially if neither partner knows it actually is a flaw. I mean, if you mostly dance with 1 partner, you don't necessarily know that she shouldn't drape her weight or not move.

With the guy above, I think he honestly didn't ever realize the woman can move herself and that she's supposed to. Naturally, he wouldn't have complained about that to a teacher. (He still might not because complaining about your wife in front of your wife is dicey. You'd have to think a bit and make the request to be you think you both need to work on moving because you think perhaps you look slow and stationary. You could say something like, "I notice when I watch X and her teacher, they really cover a lot of ground and it looks more dynamic. How can we do that?" There are pitfalls of taking lessons with your spouse. )

 

[bia]

I am under the impression the two mostly dance with each other. ... Similar things could happen with any flaw especially if neither partner knows it actually is a flaw. I mean, if you mostly dance with 1 partner, you don't necessarily know that she shouldn't drape her weight or not move.

With the guy above, I think he honestly didn't ever realize the woman can move herself and that she's supposed to. Naturally, he wouldn't have complained about that to a teacher. (He still might not because complaining about your wife in front of your wife is dicey. You'd have to think a bit and make the request to be you think you both need to work on moving because you think perhaps you look slow and stationary. You could say something like, "I notice when I watch X and her teacher, they really cover a lot of ground and it looks more dynamic. How can we do that?" There are pitfalls of taking lessons with your spouse. )

All true, though my husband and I mostly dance together, and our teachers dance with each of us a lot in lessons for diagnostic purposes.

 

[joy]

By weight, you mean he wants to feel a force or a pressure in his arm or on the connection at his hip, right? I actually had a discussion with my pro about the distinction between "weight" and "force" in physics. First, "weight" is a force. The "weight" my pro wants to feel is, technically, a "force". It's not really "weight" because it's not offsetting the force of gravity exerts on me; and it's the force of gravity that is litterally "weight". We discussed this distinction....

I'm a feeler dancer, so I don't think analytically about the physics of dance.

But my Pro wants more weight and more resistance from me.

This might help with the concept:
I had a coaching with Michael Mead, and he told me that there are two kinds of connection. One is the push connection, where partners push into each other. And the other is the pull connection where partners pull away from each other.

He said new dancers usually get connection by pushing each other. But in Smooth, to get the big and voluminous dancing, you need to work with the pull connection.

This is the connection that I'm trying to give my Pro more of. And when he made me be the lead, while he followed, it felt like a lot of weight and I tired out.

 

[Bailango]

makes me think that given the amount of conditioning ballroom pros should have (which is a lot? I'm going by what I've heard of dancesport pros' training regimes), they would be less affected by having to support a partner with inadequate technique.

That’s like saying smoker is less affected by smoking because they are healthy. Long term effects of a slow burn can be devastating. Bad habits over a long duration catch up. I am very very surprised about the Pros not correcting hanging on or not being aware of it.

Are there classes/workshops in ballroom dancing for sustainable dancing? Things like minimising physical impact on one's and others' bodies, developing stamina for comps/long periods of dancing, anything to ensure that one can continue dancing well into their old age without having to give it up because of infirmity. Given the greater probability of onset of issues such as arthritis, MS, Parkinson's, hip replacements, I'd expect there to be something.

You are asking for too much

 

[Bailango]

I know some dancers seeking out on their own and a couple of studios offer courses like Alexander’s technique, etc to attain correct posture to prevent injuries. There is a degree of awareness in general but you are largely left to your own devices to seek solution. This is not specific to any particular dance. I only expect dance instructors to go as so far to create awareness. It should be upto the students to seek out solutions.

 

[Bailango]

Anyway, the problem of holding up the arms is slightly different from the "draping your weight" I was talking about before.

I know exactly what you are mentioning. I am a bit sensitive to holding up the arms or followers who drop their arm on mine. It is a pet peeve of mine. Holding up a follower’s arm gets tiring very quickly. Fortunately it is a small minority. When it happens, I will at times drop my right hand lower. That is not an option in competitive ballroom since frame and hold position are rigidly defined. Deviations can cause points dinged at the competition I guess.

 

[lucia_l]

This is the connection that I'm trying to give my Pro more of. And when he made me be the lead, while he followed, it felt like a lot of weight and I tired out.

Yes. That's what you need. I don't have any gripe with calling that connection weight-- my pro calls it that too. We both agree when you are teaching dance it's a better word than any other.

The reason I'm making a distinction between "real honest to goodness weight" and that is that the "weight" some beginners put on pros is a lot more like the weight of a heavy shoulder bag you sling over your shoulder. With a shoulder bag it's just dead weight. It's not what we want for "connection". Or course this also pushes down on the pros shoulder. But he's really just lifting to counter the force of gravity on the bag.

Other than to explain what some of these follows do and how it can damage the pro-- that thing is to -make the pro carry some of their honest to goodness real weight as defined in physics, it's not worth explaining the difference between "real weight" and "what we mean when we say 'give me some weight' ".

Mostly, if he's actually lugging you around and carrying you... bad. Not what your pro or michael mead want. If you feel something you could also call "resistance"-- good.

 

[lucia_l]

I know exactly what you are mentioning. I am a bit sensitive to holding up the arms or followers who drop their arm on mine. It is a pet peeve of mine. Holding up a follower’s arm gets tiring very quickly. Fortunately it is a small minority.

Well... maybe not that small fraction. (Blush...)

When it happens, I will at times drop my right hand lower. That is not an option in competitive ballroom since frame and hold position are rigidly defined. Deviations can cause points dinged at the competition I guess.

Exactly. If I don't carry my own arm weight, and he wants to help me win, it's like expecting my pro to lead while having 2lb (or maybe 5lb) weights strapped to each of his wrists. This is where weight literally is weight. It's not "connection".

This is somewhat different from the "draping" problem, which is more like him having a 20 -60 lb dead weight pushing down on his shoulder. ( Some of my weight is still going to be on my feet.)

 

[Bailango]

This is somewhat different from the "draping" problem, which is more like him having a 20 -60 lb dead weight pushing down on his shoulder. ( Some of my weight is still going to be on my feet.)

In tango some followers will drape the leader. To outsider it can look like a more passionate embrace. But they are not throwing their weight on to the leader. They are still on their own axis, carrying their own weight, while being up close to the leader while enveloping him in the embrace with their right arm usually accompanied by head buried but not pushing or weighing on the leader. Nothing negative there.

There are followers who will literally try to hang-on (to different degrees) like you described or push their head/face against or into the leader or not put weight of their arm.

 

[David_In_CA]

One of the amateur men who social dances with me, who routinely hangs on me, pushes my shoulders around* and wrenches me into uncomfortable positions, asked me, "Why is it that when I social dance with my teacher, she makes me feel like a great dancer, but when I dance with you, I feel like a bad dancer?" or WTTE.

Is this That Guy? I'm not sure whether you're a saint or a martyr for continuing to dance with him.

 

[j_alexandra]

Is this That Guy? I'm not sure whether you're a saint or a martyr for continuing to dance with him.

Yes. FWIW, he showed up at the social last night, and, ever mindful of my shoulders, when he started to droop, I literally wagged? raised? my arm, which raised his arm, to remind him to effing stop leaning on me. And we only did two or three dances.

I keep hoping for improvement. He's been taking lessons from a long-suffering teacher, and has actually improved some. So: saint or martyr? Or just pie-eyed optimist? Dunno.

 

[David_In_CA]

Yes. FWIW, he showed up at the social last night, and, ever mindful of my shoulders, when he started to droop, I literally wagged? raised? my arm, which raised his arm, to remind him to effing stop leaning on me. And we only did two or three dances.

I keep hoping for improvement. He's been taking lessons from a long-suffering teacher, and has actually improved some. So: saint or martyr? Or just pie-eyed optimist? Dunno.

I can understand dancing with a lot of bad dancers. From your other posts, TG just doesn't seem like a nice enough person to put up with getting injured more than once. I can appreciate your less cynical approach, though

 

[ProgressNotPerfection]

I can understand dancing with a lot of bad dancers. From your other posts, TG just doesn't seem like a nice enough person to put up with getting injured more than once. I can appreciate your less cynical approach, though

The triumph of optimism over experience.

 

[Dancer Bob]

I'm quite a bit taller and heavier than lucia's husband, but I can relate to everything she's saying. For example, my knees won't take turns in Viennese Waltz if my partner won't step out. I won't refuse to dance with anybody who can keep time with the music but at least half of women, I'm just shuffling around, stumbling through pre-bronze figures.
ThatGuy seems to be getting lots of dancing, so he's as good as he needs to be (whether I'm interested in dancing with the women who put up with him- this is about him, not me.)

 

[pianistamediano]

ThatGuy seems to be getting lots of dancing, so he's as good as he needs to be (whether I'm interested in dancing with the women who put up with him- this is about him, not me.)

Could be that they're taking a long-term view of things in the hopes that he'll be a decent dancer someday?