Is Pro Am becoming a sport of only the wealthy?

[joedance]

Some pros or studios are a bit shadier when pricing comps. They give a student a flat rate x dollars and this is it. Now if the student has access to wholesale and starts questioning the final dollar figure it can cause drama. Is it going to get a cheap end dollar figure no probably not. Walmart or saks doesn't release wholesale and what they pay to shoppers why should organizers or dance studios release it to their clients?

OMG. Pro's are contractors. I'm in the service industry and pass through costs with receipts. I negotiate my fees, labor costs, and schedule. Why do dance pro's not want to operate in the same manner?

I pay a pro for labor and time. I pay a comp for entries. I pay a costume manufacture for clothing, I pay the video people for a video. I pay the photographer for pictures. I pay the hotel restaurant for breakfast? I know what each costs and can make the best decision possible for the outcome I want.

I don't begrudge pros for making money on their labor and time commensurate with their education and training, but arguing that fees should be hidden to avoid drama doesn't make sense. Some people will write checks and not bother checking because it does take time to research things. Others like some on this forum take great care in managing their finances.

 

[fascination]

in the end, it all boils down to this; what we are arguing about is my money....mine, the student's... not your skill, your entitlement, my level of gratitude, understanding, difficultness.....my money....if you want it, particularly if you want lots of it...you don't have to do anything you don't want to do...but I set the conditions under which I am going to be parted with it...I just do....

now, if you have your line in the sand and students are a dime a dozen and no one is going to tell you how to do your job or how to set your pricing, great...good for you...you should have that right

likewise, no one gets to tell me that I need to toss them 10k without knowing why, or whether or not I can do something to make it less...sorry no one is that good or talented or noble or whatever...no one.....my view, and my money...and I don't need my pro to do math for me....the good news is you have the freedom to not be my pro ...

 

[jump'n'jive]

I'm not saying pros or studios should hide fees. I typed out how we do our business. But demanding and saying you should have access to the organizer wholesale price is ludicrous.

All you should have price to is studio fee, package fee and entry fee with mark up already done. Gross fees not wholesale fee.

 

[fascination]

asking and demanding are two different things...asking in order to see where one wants to make some cuts...isn't a crime...if you are fine with the answer being "no" and your students are fine with that, then it's a match....and an accptable way to operate

but it isn't the only acceptable way to operate....I haven't demanded a single thing in my entire dance life....if you have to demand something, you already should have left .....

 

[raindance]

I'm not saying pros or studios should hide fees. I typed out how we do our business. But demanding and saying you should have access to the organizer wholesale price is ludicrous.

All you should have price to is studio fee, package fee and entry fee with mark up already done. Gross fees not wholesale fee.

Thing is, they are not wholesale prices, at least not all of them. Folks going just to spectate can buy a package if they want. And they can do it without going through a studio or a pro, if they want. If you want to put a markup on a package, that doesn't create a wholesale item just because you marked it up.

Likewise with entries - am/am can enter with no pro or studio involved if they like, so there is a price out there which is available and is not "wholesale". Pro/am you need the pro to dance with you, but depending on your agreement with the pro, you might still pay the organizer directly.

How your describe your presentation of the pricing is the sort of breakdown most students are looking for IMO, I am not arguing with that. But I disagree with the label of "wholesale" on the organizer's pricing. Just because you are acting as an intermediary, with or without whatever markup your business calls for (and your students are willing to pay), does not make something wholesale when other non-pros can buy at that price directly.

 

[jump'n'jive]

Whenever I receive the package price in bold letters it says wholesale pricing. So yes it is wholesale price.

 

[Cal]

Following on from raindance's comments. Part of the problem is the characterization that the Organizer has a wholesale cost and that the Pro is retailing it.

Classic wholesale/retail: Farmer milks his cow and sells the raw milk at wholesale cost to a Retailer; Retailer buys the milk out of his own pocket, adds some vitamins, puts the milk in the pretty carton and charges a retail price, hoping that someone will buy it. Retailer bears the risk of loss if the milk doesn't sell at his retail price.

But in our ballroom world the Organizer has already done the packaging work for the services the Organizer performs. The Organizer is the one hiring judges, preparing the heatlist schedule, setting up the tables, buying the balloons, choosing the buffet selection and establishing the various package choices for the students to buy. My Pro doesn't perform any of those organizational services. My Pro does NOT buy the package/ entries first out of his own pocket and then try to sell it to me or other students. My Pro isn't bearing a retailer's risk of loss if the package isn't sold. He is not retailing or "re-selling" anything because he didn’t buy it as his own directly from the Organizer in the first place.

So it isn't really accurate that PSADs are a specific subset of consumers that can't be told the cost of the organizer's services because someone describes the organizer and pro/studio relationship as "wholesale/retail". Adding to the confusion are the discussions in which some people are talking about "value added" to the "wholesale price", but then other people talk about "bundling" of prices…. well, with all that vagueness and variety of definitions going on, it's no wonder that it can come across that there's some misrepresentation/deception going on somewhere.

 

[raindance]

Whenever I receive the package price in bold letters it says wholesale pricing. So yes it is wholesale price.

Putting it in a brochure and putting bold letters on it doesn't make it true. Now, if I (individual, not a pro) pay $300 straight to the organizer for two days of tickets and meals, and you (pro and/or a dance studio) only pay $100 to the organizer if you sell the same package to your students (for whatever price you want them to pay), then that's wholesale. I don't think that's what's going on here, though who knows.

 

[SwayWithMe]

I like to see a breakdown because the chickypoo in the office (an accountant by training) cannot do the math, even in Excel. She cannot multiply, she cannot add, and she once blithely handed me an invoice with $2k for makeup. I trust my pro, but I do NOT trust her AT ALL. She isn't even embarrassed by the mistakes. So unprofessional.

 

[rels77]

The contractor analogy is a perfect one. When I get work done on my house, I get a quote for labor, materials, etc. Many contractors will list materials as cost plus 15% - which is of course their markup for getting them, dealing with it, managing deliveries, etc. They don't refer to the materials costs as wholesale. (although oftentimes they do pay for the materials and bill me for it.) I wouldn't hire a contractor without knowing what their materials markup is - it's my way of comparing things - is their labor charge lower because they do a higher materials markup, etc?

To me, this plays into an odd dynamic I didn't realize was in ballroom. In most other service/educational/contractor roles, the person who is paying is the person with the power - they are the customer. Same think with doctors, lawyers, etc. If I'm paying, then I should hold a level of control over the process. But in this industry, it seems as historically, it's been that the teacher/studios are the ones in control. That seems wierd to me as a consumer. Then again, I work with an independent pro so I can't even understand some of the stuff that happens within studios.

 

[joedance]

Actually, many students ARE saying that. Perhaps not YOU.... I sit in studios all day, every day, all over the country. You should hear what gets said...

I'm sure every other contractor / service provider including myself have heard the same. I've found that if ones rates are fair, open, honest and competitive in the local market one will get the business and do well.

 

[Cal]

In reality this IS how it is supposed to go. Organizers HATE receiving checks from PASDs. They expect one big check from the studio, not 6 checks all coming in at different times from different people, but expecting to be considered a group.

I pay the organizer. And I have to say that I WILL pay on time, even though my students often never paid me until the week before or after. So in that respect, I do bear the risk of reselling something that may, in the end, not bet purchased after all.

I'd look at that scenario as a private credit/financing/loan arrangement between you and that student. Just from my perspective, you're bearing the risk of a lender, not a retailer.

 

[Mr 4 styles]

I don't think BD was talking about a dance escort

 

[Mr 4 styles]

I will always want to do my own entries. And for the amount of money the organizer better be thrilled to get my single check I simply know that if I do the entries they will be right and my requests honored.

 

[Cal]

It is what's going on, except studios don't get it for cheaper than the individual, they simply buy it and mark up, often the package prices in addition to, the heat price. The heat markup pays the teacher for their work. Package markup goes to pay the studio so they can stay in business when teachers are not there working off debt on the books.

Well, I'm just not following along well: if the Studio is "marking up" the "package" - then what's been added to my "package" to justify that mark-up? If, in reality, it's a charge to cover the studio's lost expenses, I'm fine with that, but then call it THAT - don't call it a "package mark-up". 'Cause if you "mark-up a package", then someone is going to expect something extra as part of the package: a crystal goblet rather than a paper cup to drink the water out of; or a special meet-and-greet with the judges after the competition is over - something added to the package for the student's use.

If the "mark-up" of the "heat" is to cover the Pro's labor, I'm fine with that, but then call it THAT - don't call it a "heat mark-up". 'Cause if you "mark-up a heat", then someone is going to expect something extra as part of that heat: that the DJ will play a specific tune for them, or a spotlight will follow them around.

I'm certainly not in any way trying to imply that you are trying to hide the cost of anything from your students, or that you don't provide every bit of information that they ask about in order to make an informed decision. But please understand that, with all the definitions floating around out there as to what a "mark-up" really is and its purpose - well, you have to expect that students are going to ask for details and clarification. And it certainly doesn't help clarify anything that I can get all the Organizer's information if I dance with an amateur partner, but for some reason I'm not entitled to that same information if I happen to paying for the labor of a third party. People will start jumping to all kinds of conclusions - as this thread indicates.