ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Yeah, I get the concept. I was simply taking the easy way out. But I'll try it as you describe and see what happens.
Leaders. How was your Tango journey?
- Thread starter Pharaoh
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As I said, it's a 'cheat', but it helps along the way to understand the concept of leading the cross. It's also about having an abrazo to lead that without moving.
Don't use it that frequently. Sometimes more as an shortcut to some other step starting from the cross, so it just saves a few steps getting there. But there are other times...
JournalInTime
Forum Master
I use it when I have zero space. "Cross from nothing"/spiral cross that lands and uncrosses in one time, with an immediate leader sacada into the follower's uncrossing, is one of the fastest ways to start an ultra-close-embrace turn in no space. You can start a turning vals in place from a dead stop without hanging around like a zombie hoping the couple chatting for half the vals ahead of you will move eventually.
If I were asked I would try to lead it the same way. First principles are useful for a reason. I have never practiced it. I can’t remember leading it. My question is if you were to lead ten random followers, how many would follow correctly. This is one of those move were follower will interprete and anticipate leading (sic) her to do something else flubbing your lead.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
About 7 or 8.
Only compulsive right-lefters – people who think every note demands a weight change, led or not, and who don't "do" suspension – would mess it up on the follower side. I think the failure rate is mostly on my side of the dance, and linked to not using enough suspension.
Be Present
Well-Known Member
Continued beginner leader here. Follower learning to lead. It is wonderful that there is a male leader who is learning to follow at a Sunday practica so we are practicing together. But yesterday i had a breakthrough when I led the instructor… i got through steps of inline walking into progressive back ochos, stepping outside to a cross and back in line, all in close embrace and nearly without thinking about where does this foot go, what foot is she on, what do i do next… etc. it was pretty much smooth and continuous and she could tell what I was leading so I will take that as a beginner 
Thanks for the encouragement!
Thanks for the encouragement!
For private lessons, if I am a leader, is it better to go to Leader(male) instructor or follower instructor. I mean all instructors learn both roles for teaching purposes, but when they dance at milongas or practicas, they usually dance in their main role. So, should leaders go to leaders?
ArbeeNYC
Forum Master
Good question. Wish I knew. The best way might be to go as a couple (that is, bring a dance partner) and work with a leader. I've taken privates with a female teacher. Did so for many months, and it was helpful. But you don't always learn new things way, mostly refine what you have. If you work with a partner, the teacher (leader) can see how you are leading and correct your faults.
I think in general this is not important. There are so many other factors that are more important that their preferred role has never been the tie-breaker for me.
For me the lessons that were most helpful were the ones where there was an opportunity to both observe and learn and be observed and critiqued - this works with being taught by a couple, or having a partner. The most helpful lessons to me were actually semi-privates / extremely guided practicas - two or maybe three student couples and a teacher couple. Seeing other people work on the same material helps.
This comes from a perspective of less trying to learn tango and more trying to learn how to learn tango - i also think the most difficult and most important skill in tango is how to practice with a partner and how to learn from ones experiences at the milonga.
JournalInTime
Forum Master
In a perfect world, you should come with a partner and let the teacher operate outside of your couple and correct you both. Then it almost doesn't matter . . . A follower teacher will dance with you and give secret follower tips to your follower; a leader teacher will dance with your follower and give secret leader tips to you; either will mostly not dance with either of you, and should be able to offer both of you corrections from the outside.
In a really perfect world, you should come with a partner and work with a teaching couple. Nothing is better than that, because you can see everything from outside yourselves, exchange partners, and get both aspects of what I said above.
If you have to go alone, either will do if they're competent.
opendoor
Forum Master
It totally depends. It depends on whether you are interested in steps or posture. It depends on whether the instructor sees himself/ herself as a dancer or a teacher. It depends on whether the teacher can think analytically and verbalize movement sequences or can only demonstrate something without words. It depends on your own learning style and your previous knowledge.
About me (male, leader). I taught myself steps, combinations and sequences by copying. But I was only able to learn posture and smooth movement by having private lessons with a former ballet dancer (female) for over 4 years.
So you have to try out a handful of combinations until you get the right match. A generalized advice is not possible!
opendoor
Forum Master
I can't agree with that, JournalInTime. Having privates as a couple is completely counterproductive. It can make sense for advanced couples to break up specific, established dynamics for once. And even then, only one of them really benefits.
Beginners should always take their privates individually!
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JournalInTime
Forum Master
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don't think that 1:1 private lessons are optimal. All that ends up happening is that you become a clone of the dancer your teacher thinks is ideal. I saw so many leaders fall into this trap with followers who teach here . . . They all became "the leader Ms. X would like to dance with." Zero universality.
Taking privates as a couple largely removes that risk. Also, you don't have to be an established couple! You can pick some random follower you happen to like and pay private lessons 50/50. I've done it and it works. The important part is NOT that you have an existing working relationship with your learning partner; the important part is that neither you nor your learning partner is being shaped into your teacher's vision of an ideal partner.
My advice to the OP would be to pick a follower you think you can work with, agree to split the teacher's fee 50/50, and benefit from an external influence who can watch you dance with someone who isn't them.
In the contrary, we have privates as a couple. Sometimes we go separately if there's something specific. It's highly productive as a couple.
opendoor
Forum Master
As always
In my opinion, this danger does not exist. A student must copy something, but only on the computer screen when you are analyzing performances of your idols. Every tango career incorporates elements from teachers and predecessors. Not everything is a de-novo reinvention. But of course you have to change your private teacher several times so that you don't take on the bad attitudes, I assumed that. But in a tango career, you never stand still: you keep questioning everything.
By the way, I could not copy anything from my most important private teacher, that said former ballerina, even if I wanted to. She was passive and I had to invent everything. She only gave me her feedback and advice.
When I had private lessons with a male teacher, he also then was in the following role and I could not copy anything from him.
I can agree with that, it works. But then the leader should really take a different follower with him each time.
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